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Religions: How To Deal With Tyranny?

A wild tyrant appears!

  • Rely on the Mandate of Heaven to straighten things out (maybe Confucianism?)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Obey filial piety and orderly society (also Confucianism)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • It's all an illusion anyway, so meditate and reach enlightenment (Buddhism)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Overturn a couple tables (Christianity)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Turn the other cheek (also Christianity)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Go with the flow, and accept life/death (Taoism)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    9

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
Suppose someone like Hitler or Napoleon or Genghis Khan tries to rule everything.

Not just all countries, not just all people, but even controlling cats/dogs/etc, and even which trees are planted where. Businesses are subjected to strict rules on who can enter the store to shop, people are branded, and so on. Basically, some mix of religious apocalyptic scenario.

The question is, how exactly does one respond? There's a bunch of religious advice on this subject, but when you do a comparative study of religion, their approach to the problems of the world are even more contradictory than their beliefs on God/gods/etc or the afterlife.

The Big Religion Chart

Not including Judaism, because one tyrant in particular almost destroyed Judaism. And some of these are crazy extremes, but we are assuming under this ruler, things are hardcore and people need to find an action that won't make things worse.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Excommunicate. At least when he is using religion to strengthen his reign. Many tyrants have professed to do what they do in the name of a god. That venue can be cut of by the religious leaders.
 

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member
Use inner peace and make myself safe and happy without violence, thus liberating myself giving me omnipresent pacifism.
 

Shia Islam

Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
Premium Member
As Shia Muslims, the general rule is that we follow the imams our prophet pointed to. Some Imams, such as Imam Hussain, the prophet grandson, have faced the tyrant with force, although only a small group supported him. He has chosen Martyrdom over giving to the tyrant.

Other imams, found that their situation is different than that of imam Hussain, and have largely found that the best possible option is to educate the people and not to face the tyrant with force.

Ultimately, I believe that true justice will only come with the arrival of the Mahdi and Jesus.

In the meanwhile however, as a minority within the Muslims, the Shiites don't use force, unless they are forced to protect themselves from a real threat, such as a threat to their existence, or a threat to survival of their religion.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
I woted resitance without force, it means spreading info about the tyrant, sending righteroes thoughts, inform about the situation online, so more people can know about it.
Silent protest with bannere as close to the source as possible.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Excommunicate. At least when he is using religion to strengthen his reign. Many tyrants have professed to do what they do in the name of a god. That venue can be cut of by the religious leaders.

That was precisely the method utilized by St. Ambrose, bishop of Milan, in 390 CE when the Roman Emperor Theodosius orchestrated a massacre against the inhabitants of Thessalonica who had risen in revolt against the imperial throne.

The entire uprising had been provoked by an incident involving the arrest and detainment of a 'charioteer' popular with the common people, on charges of having committed a "homosexual offence" (I'm afraid to say he was incarcerated for that). The populace demanded his release. Upon the refusal of the military governor of the province, a general insurrection broke out and in retaliatian the Emperor Theodosius dispatched multiple army units which captured the rebellious city and systematically slaughtered 7,000 of its citizens without trial in a mass extra-judicial war crime.

St. Ambrose, then the Emperor's closest confidante in the church's clerical hierarchy, was appalled by the savagery and unlawful nature of the imperially-sanctioned massacre, to such an extent that he excommunicated the Emperor:


Massacre of Thessalonica - Wikipedia


Ambrose, the bishop of Milan, after hearing about the massacre, left Milan (which was the residence of Theodosius at that time) and refused to celebrate a Mass in the Emperor's presence, until Theodosius repented. In a letter to the emperor, Ambrose explained his position and gave reasons for his resolution:

What could I do? Should I not hear? But I could not clog my ears with wax, as old fables tell. Should I then speak about what I heard? But I was obliged to avoid precisely what I feared could be brought about by your orders, that is, a bloodshed. Should I remain silent? But then the worst thing would happen as my conscience would be bound and my words taken away. And where would they be then? When a priest does not talk to a sinner, then the sinner will die in his sin, and the priest will be guilty because he failed to correct him.[3]
According to Theodoret, when the emperor tried to enter a Milanese church, where Ambrose was about to celebrate a Mass, the bishop stopped him and rebuked him for what he had done. And because the emperor “had been brought up according to divine words and understood well that some affairs are handled by priests, others by emperors”, he could do nothing but return "weeping and sighing" to the palace.[4]

Eight months had passed and Theodosius still sat in the palace, moaning and sobbing. His magister officiorum Rufinus, who "used great freedom of speech due to the familiarity with the emperor", noticed this behaviour, approached and asked him why he was weeping. Having been told, he volunteered to see the bishop and ask him to reconsider. Theodosius hesitantly agreed and even chose to follow Rufinus from a distance.

Ambrose was not restrained at all when negotiating with Rufinus, scolding him and even accusing him of complicity in the massacre: "Rufinus, you are as impudent as a dog, because it was you who advised the emperor such a bloodshed." When the emperor showed up, Ambrose at first remained stubborn and changed his mind only after Theodosius promised to promulgate a law, which in cases of death sentences would introduce a thirty-day lag before the execution.[5]


And so, as a result of St. Ambrose's passive 'resistance' through the supreme instrument of ecclesiastical excommunication, the Emperor was eventually reduced to a sobbing, penitent 'man-child' and agreed to change the law (to make it that no one could be executed without trial and a thirty-day period in which to make amends for alleged offences) in return for being re-admitted to church.

When he was again permitted to attend Mass, Ambrose compelled him to get down on his knees in a public demonstration of his desire for forgiveness and then sit at the 'back' of the pews with the rest of his lay subjects like a regular joe. The purpose was to show to all and sundry that even the Emperor was subject to the same 'rule of law' in divine eyes, being no greater in worth under God's estimation than any other layperson:


"...The Emperor listened to this advice, and deeming it excellent, he at once ordered the law to be drawn up, and himself signed the document.

St. Ambrose then unloosed his bonds. The Emperor, who was full of faith, now took courage to enter holy church, [where] he prayed neither in a standing, nor in a kneeling posture, but throwing himself on the ground. He tore his hair, struck his forehead, and shed torrents of tears, as he implored forgiveness of God. [Ambrose restored him to favor, but forbade him to come inside the altar rail, ordering his deacon to say], "The priests alone, O Emperor, are permitted to enter within the barriers by the altar. Retire then, and remain with the rest of the laity. A purple robe makes Emperors, but not priests." . . .

[Theodosius uttered some excuses, and meekly obeyed, praising Ambrose for his spirit, and saying], "Ambrose alone deserves the title of 'bishop.'"
..."

(William Stearns Davis, Readings in Ancient History, vol II: Rome and the West (Boston: Allyn and Bacon, 1913), pp. 298-300.)

If the emperor in question 'believes' in the religious creed (or has to feign such for reasons of maintaining his rule over Christian subjects in a society founded upon religious belief), that's how its done. Get the guy on all-fours in sackcloth and ashes, and compel him to institute legal change so that the unlawful, tyrannous acts are safeguarded against in future.

Should he refuse to comply, the excommunication automatically relieves his Christian subjects of any oaths of fealty to him under canon law, meaning that they can all legitimately rise in organised rebellion against his rule and put someone else on the throne in his stead.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Suppose someone like Hitler or Napoleon or Genghis Khan tries to rule everything.

Not just all countries, not just all people, but even controlling cats/dogs/etc, and even which trees are planted where. Businesses are subjected to strict rules on who can enter the store to shop, people are branded, and so on. Basically, some mix of religious apocalyptic scenario.

The question is, how exactly does one respond? There's a bunch of religious advice on this subject, but when you do a comparative study of religion, their approach to the problems of the world are even more contradictory than their beliefs on God/gods/etc or the afterlife.

The Big Religion Chart

Not including Judaism, because one tyrant in particular almost destroyed Judaism. And some of these are crazy extremes, but we are assuming under this ruler, things are hardcore and people need to find an action that won't make things worse.
Keep in mind that if history and probability work out the way they typically do, the tyrant that emerges will also be the leader of your own religion, or at least your national church.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I would follow the example Jesus and his disciples showed. No violence, but also no submission (They were loyal to God, even when they were persecuted and killed).
Jesus?

"Attacking moneychangers with a bullwhip" Jesus?

"If you don't have a sword, go sell your cloak and buy one" Jesus?

That Jesus?
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
The French did actually try to do this too, but it didn't exactly end up being a boon for freedom lovers :D

They didn't kill all the priests mind you and I must say neither did they kill all the kings either. Perhapse the problem was that they didn't kill ALL of them. :p
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I would follow the example Jesus and his disciples showed. No violence, but also no submission (They were loyal to God, even when they were persecuted and killed).
Then Jesus said, "I'lll beee baackkk".
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Jesus?

"Attacking moneychangers with a bullwhip" Jesus?

"If you don't have a sword, go sell your cloak and buy one" Jesus?

That Jesus?

I think it would be reasonable to read the whole book and not cherry pick the parts atheist choose for their propaganda purposes. For example, that sword part, makes great difference, if it is not taken out of the context.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I think it would be reasonable to read the whole book and not cherry pick the parts atheist choose for their propaganda purposes. For example, that sword part, makes great difference, if it is not taken out of the context.
I have read the whole book. Jesus is depicted as far from pacifist. He often glorifies violence in his sermons and sometimes inflicts violence himself.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I think it would be reasonable to read the whole book and not cherry pick the parts atheist choose for their propaganda purposes. For example, that sword part, makes great difference, if it is not taken out of the context.


Interestingly, many non believers have actually read the book. I know i have read 3 versions cover to cover, not cherry picked selected verses but the whole book.

This is why so many atheists are more knowledgeable about the bible than the vast majority of christians.

Problem is most christians will not accept an atheist knows more about the bible and are able to pick those unsavoury parts that christians ignore and so they make claims like, "I think it would be reasonable to read the whole book and not cherry pick"
 
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