Religious fervor or mental illness?

[james bond]

Discussions in another thread prompt me to post this. First, a link to a Scientific American article addressing the question: How Do You Distinguish between Religious Fervor and Mental Illness?

I know I'm skating on thin ice with many even approaching this subject, but I have a sneaking suspicion that there is a deep relationship between what we would normally consider as mental illness and 'religious fervor'.

The author of the article concludes "we need more to help guide us through the difficult circumstances in which mental health care and religion collide."

I wonder what RF people think? Can we help Dr. Morris define the boundaries between religious fervor and mental illness?

The writer is basing this on a fake news story. See link below. He must be a liberal and mentally ill. Liberals such as this writer think Hollywood values of public obscenities, decadence, narcissism, hypocrisy, rampant drug use, extramarital sex leading to the spread of sexually-transmitted disease, abortion, lawlessness and the promotion of the homosexual agenda as normal. It's no wonder these jackos go wacko when they find out reality doesn't match their values.

FALSE: American Psychological Association to Classify Belief in God As a Mental Illness

 

[Sha'irullah]

Reminds me of Robert Sapolsky

Religiosity has always been a byproduct of compulsion and very abnormal behaviour. I for example should be given a full blown degree in data analysis considering I use 115GB on my Google Drive to stock pile research and random LibreOffice spreads for calculations.

 

[Curious George]

OK - to skate out out onto even thinner ice...

Didn't Jesus literally hear God? And Moses? And Muhammad? For example.

And please - don't get me wrong - I am not denigrating religious people - that's not the point of the thread. Are the alternate views of reality that arise from 'voices in the head', visions,...etc. any more or less valid than the more mundane views of reality that emerge from science and logic?

Why is it that if I "hear God" I am probably "mad" - but if I completely accept the second or third hand account of someone else who "heard God" and then got a lot of other people to believe he had heard God, I am just "religious"?

Where is the boundary between religious fervor and mental illness? Is it just a matter of when it becomes an obstacle to "normal functioning"? But who defines "normal functioning"?

Well I did say "chances are there is a problem" and not "there certainly is a problem."

While I think I am probably the wrong person to answer this, I believe most religious believe that you must look at the fruits of that interaction. Woman kills six kids in Texas because it is what God told her to do=bad. Man in the middle east gets prophetic wisdom that is true and then man goes on to work miracles=good.

I don't know about you, but if I heard a voice that gave me some information and then I could allow blind people to see without fail, I would certainly consider listening to what else the voice had to say.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I got that.

I still resent this implication. It means that the atheist/s considers nearly all of humanity mentally ill while he himself, themselves are not. It speaks for itself who is thus and therefore mentally ill. Frankly, that subject should be stricken from this website as inflammatory and insulting to so many. It should be reported and enforced by the moderators.

Rubbish.
Talk to anyone who actually works in mental health care and they'll tell you that they need to make calls at times on things like auditory hallucinations.

This has nothing to do with believing that theists are crazy, and you're going off completely half-assed about something you seem to have limited background on.

If you want to report something to the mods, report it. Discussing moderation is in and of itself an infraction, though not one I'd personally bother reporting in this case.

 

[Grandliseur]

Rubbish.
Talk to anyone who actually works in mental health care and they'll tell you that they need to make calls at times on things like auditory hallucinations.

This has nothing to do with believing that theists are crazy, and you're going off completely half-assed about something you seem to have limited background on.

If you want to report something to the mods, report it. Discussing moderation is in and of itself an infraction, though not one I'd personally bother reporting in this case.

The initial post about this subject was hurtful. It implies that religion is a mental problem.
I resent that kind of subject. It does nothing for either your side or mine. All it does is inflame passions and cause pain. So whether I am "going half-assed about something or not, it offended me. And, you can go full-assed on that one. If you cannot get how this kind of subject is inflammatory perhaps you ought to study the issues a bit.

As I said, this brings nothing but warnings from the Mods, and for sure, we are already on way to hell on this thread, you included.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Discussions in another thread prompt me to post this. First, a link to a Scientific American article addressing the question: How Do You Distinguish between Religious Fervor and Mental Illness?

I know I'm skating on thin ice with many even approaching this subject, but I have a sneaking suspicion that there is a deep relationship between what we would normally consider as mental illness and 'religious fervor'.

The author of the article concludes "we need more to help guide us through the difficult circumstances in which mental health care and religion collide."

I wonder what RF people think? Can we help Dr. Morris define the boundaries between religious fervor and mental illness?

My suspicion has always been that religious fervour (as you put it) is more symptom, and not the culprit in the vast majority of cases.

Specifically talking about cases I have some knowledge of, people can have auditory hallucinations of Jesus, the devil, a bad parent, or the Teletubbies. Of those, 2 can be seen as 'religious' but in reality I think (mostly) it's simply how the same base illness is manifesting.

As someone earlier mentioned, impact on a person's own life, and on the world around them, is more the measure of whether something would be considered a mental illness.

Anecdotally, one interesting thing is that the bias of the case worker can effect things in terms of how they are categorised. I don't mean that in a 'atheists think people who talk to Jesus are crazy' way either. Rather, vague hallucinations are often coloured with the local cultural views.

Talk about a dark voice telling you to kill people in a Christian country and there is some chance it's described in the case notes as 'auditory hallucinations of the Devil', regardless of whether the client directly said that.

 

[Curious George]

The initial post about this subject was hurtful. It implies that religion is a mental problem.
I resent that kind of subject. It does nothing for either your side or mine. All it does is inflame passions and cause pain. So whether I am "going half-assed about something or not, it offended me. And, you can go full-assed on that one. If you cannot get how this kind of subject is inflammatory perhaps you ought to study the issues a bit.

As I said, this brings nothing but warnings from the Mods, and for sure, we are already on way to hell on this thread, you included.

I think that the OP was opening a discussion concerning how to differentiate between religious fervor and mental illness. If you set aside the reactionary pull, you can probably think of instances where a person with mental illness invokes religion of some flavor or another. So, how can we distinguish between an instance such as this and another.

I knew a person who claimed the saints told him to masturbate in public. I do not think that you would be surprised to find out that this individual did have a mental illness.
Now people "speak" (pray) to saints all the time. We do not think these people have a mental illness. We think these are just religious people.

That should be an easy one to discern. So we have one side where the is obviously a mental illness and we have another side where someone is simply religious. So where is the line? Recognizing such a line could be very important. Consider Jonestown for instance. While you may be thinking of your own religiosity, the world does not consist only of religious individuals such as yourself.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The initial post about this subject was hurtful. It implies that religion is a mental problem.

I disagree.
Auditory hallucinations are a simple example of something which can be both harmful, and attributed to religious concepts. Talking about this shouldn't be harmful to religion, unless people believe all religion is basically a mentally ill hallucinations. Which would be stupid on their part, and something I'd argue against.

I resent that kind of subject. It does nothing for either your side or mine.

The concept of 'sides' is much more harmful than open discussion about mental illness. I don't have a 'side', in the way you're supposing.

All it does is inflame passions and cause pain. So whether I am "going half-assed about something or not, it offended me. And, you can go full-assed on that one. If you cannot get how this kind of subject is inflammatory perhaps you ought to study the issues a bit.

You can assume I don't have some knowledge in this area if you wish. Or you could ask a question, or discuss the issue. Or you can leave the thread.

As I said, this brings nothing but warnings from the Mods, and for sure, we are already on way to hell on this thread, you included.

Again, feel free to report and let the mods decide, but otherwise please stop talking about moderation. As for hell, if God is petty I doubt I can please him, and if he's not I don't think he's concerned about me standing up for open discourse on mental health.

 

[Grandliseur]

think of instances where a person with mental illness invokes religion of some flavor or another. So, how can we distinguish between an instance such as this and another.

That is a major problem since insanity does involve hearing voices and people being told by voices to do things. This is often interpreted as religious stuff. But, should it be?! Isn't that another delusion? Hearing voices is (if I understand mental illness) just one of those things that certain illnesses cause.

It is not uncommon that I see people talking to themselves, mumbling, but nowadays, if seriously watched, some are just on a hidden phone with cords for mike and earphones. So, that makes it harder to know who is and isn't having a problem.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

In the East, especially in India, there are those who are believed to be intoxicated with love for God who behave like someone with mental illness. I don't believe most people can tell the difference. People intoxicated with love for God are sometimes called "masts" pronounced "must" How does one translate 'mast' into English

I know of no such "masts" who have said that they literally heard a voice they attributed to God.

There are plenty around.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The writer is basing this on a fake news story. See link below. He must be a liberal and mentally ill. Liberals such as this writer think Hollywood values of public obscenities, decadence, narcissism, hypocrisy, rampant drug use, extramarital sex leading to the spread of sexually-transmitted disease, abortion, lawlessness and the promotion of the homosexual agenda as normal. It's no wonder these jackos go wacko when they find out reality doesn't match their values.

FALSE: American Psychological Association to Classify Belief in God As a Mental Illness

You do realise the linked article identifies very directly that the 'belief in God to be classified as mental illness' was fake, right?
So who exactly are you abusing here? The OP or the author of the linked article. And why?

 

[Lyndon]

Atheists are just as likely to be mentally ill, the idea that religion is an illness is just preposterous, I could just as easily claim not sensing a higher power is a form of mental illness.

 

[Curious George]

That is a major problem since insanity does involve hearing voices and people being told by voices to do things. This is often interpreted as religious stuff. But, should it be?! Isn't that another delusion? Hearing voices is (if I understand mental illness) just one of those things that certain illnesses cause.

Yes, I think that this is the exact distinction that we are discussing. But not all cases are easy as hallucinations. We have plenty of other mental illnesses that may have no hallucinations at all. Take for instance a sociopath that will manipulate people's religious desires for his or her own benefit, or worse--sadistic desire.

It is not uncommon that I see people talking to themselves, mumbling, but nowadays, if seriously watched, some are just on a hidden phone with cords for mike and earphones. So, that makes it harder to know who is and isn't having a problem.

Even without phones, talking with oneself is not a clear indication. Some people process verbally and can be concentrating on something or another. But that is the point. It is often hard to determine where a clear line is. But this is addressing how can we distinguish everyday behavior from mental illness. This is a much more general question.

Another poster @Trailblazer pointed out that sexual behavior is another point that could replace religious fervor. And in many ways, such a question is probably more relevant to us practically. I think most behavior has a line where we can ask how to distinguish mental illness.

This poster just chose to ask about religious behavior. I think that the questioned was designed to follow the path of my posts back and forth with the OP (see my earlier responses). Where it will go from there I am not sure.

 

[Grandliseur]

Take for instance a sociopath that will manipulate people's religious desires for his or her own benefit, or worse--sadistic desire.

You cannot stop people from taking advantage of others. Some are sociopaths. It is a fact of life.

But that is the point. It is often hard to determine where a clear line is.

But, talking to oneself is one thing, Having a loud conversation, even argument, with nobody is quite another.

most behavior has a line where we can ask how to distinguish mental illness.

Not all wickedness should be labeled 'mental illness.' Wickedness and Evil exist in their own rights. Sadism and other kind of pleasure taking in hurting others should also be labelled as it deserves and not be given a 'mental illness' in all cases. Deviants are deviants and not necessarily ill. This is where things become complex.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

of the 4 nothings, the absolute nothing should be what we had, but don't. We have a universe contrary to what science expects. (matter antimatter problem)

Why are we assuming that the spontaneous condition of the universe is "absolute nothing"?

You need to be a little more specific than "science says."

For example, science says that all monkeys are brown. But science says that monkeys should be green. We should expect green monkeys, but that's not what we get. Atheists, can you explain to me why we don't have green monkeys?

See how silly that sounds?

 

[james bond]

You do realise the linked article identifies very directly that the 'belief in God to be classified as mental illness' was fake, right?
So who exactly are you abusing here? The OP or the author of the linked article. And why?

I'm saying any professional who uses fake news to promote their liberal thinking needs to have their head examined. Maybe he fell for the APA story hook, line and sinker. This doctor is looney tunes. He should get treatment first ha ha.

 

[Jumi]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any belief by itself can be called a mental illness. For example if you believe in homeopathy, you're not mentally ill, you just have beliefs that run counter to science. Mental illness can lead to strange beliefs, but the beliefs aren't an illness.

 

[LuisDantas]

Atheists are just as likely to be mentally ill, the idea that religion is an illness is just preposterous, I could just as easily claim not sensing a higher power is a form of mental illness.

Good thing this thread is not at all about that, then.

 

[Grandliseur]

Why are we assuming that the spontaneous condition of the universe is "absolute nothing"?

Out of the 4 nothings that were in an article, the question became one of assumptions, not knowledge. In this there is no idea what the pre Bang universe looked like.

This subject is however way off thread.

The Four Scientific Meanings Of 'Nothing'

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I'm saying any professional who uses fake news to promote their liberal thinking needs to have their head examined. Maybe he fell for the APA story hook, line and sinker. This doctor is looney tunes. He should get treatment first ha ha.

Who, though? Neither the OP, nor the linked article fell for anything.