Religious Laws

[Sundance]

As an outside observer, when the Muslims say "Muhammad is the last prophet" and the Baha'i say "no, he's not", it sure seems to mr that you're implying that they got things wrong.

Penguin, this goes back to the title ‘Seal of the Prophets’. We both accept it, but we just understand it differently. Muslims believe this literally, Muhammed is the final prophet. Bahá’ís, we believe that Muhammad was the last in the previous Cycle of Dispensations, the Adamic Cycle, which went from Adam to Muhammad. (As an aside, we believe that this Cycle was just one of many which have passed.)

Here are an article and an essay relating to the subject to check out if you feel that my explanation was too brief:

https://bahaikipedia.org/Progressive_revelation

http://bahai-library.com/momen_encyclopedia_ages_cycles

 

[Sundance]

Hmm. I want to make sure I am understanding correctly here. What you are wanting us to talk about here are super specific guidelines for behavior that happen to come out of a religion - such as keeping kosher - but not broader ideas like having a healthy diet or treating one's food animals with respect?

I'm talking about super specific guidelines that come out of one religion.

 

[Sundance]

Dogmatic laws grounded in faith apply if you believe they should apply to you.

On the other hand, Laws of Reality (like the ones many Buddhists like myself seek to conform to) apply to all of us regardless if we like or believe in them or not. E.g. The Law of Causality (cause-and-effect, kamma) applies to everyone.

Exactly, and dogmatic laws are what I'm referring to.

 

[George-ananda]

Should the laws of one religion apply to the followers of the subsequent (or any other) religion(s)? Should one be expected to follow religious laws which are not meant for their religion? Yes or no, and why?

As the vote tally is 19 (including me) to zero at this point, I must wonder if you presented your opponents position fairly.

 

[Sundance]

As the vote tally is 19 (including me) to zero at this point, I must wonder if you presented your opponents position fairly.

I did, George, and I even gave my opponent an opportunity to clarify anything I got wrong. Even still, 19 to 0.

 

[George-ananda]

I did, George, and I even gave my opponent an opportunity to clarify anything I got wrong. Even still, 19 to 0.

I am curious to hear from 'you know who' . Let's wait. He sees the debate as Baha'i 'Replacement Theology' versus 'Harmonizing Theology' and I voted 'Replacement Theology' there which seemed to be his side and is winning on his thread.

 

[Sundance]

I am curious to hear from 'you know who' . Let's wait. He sees the debate as Baha'i 'Replacement Theology' versus 'Harmonizing Theology' and I voted 'Replacement Theology' there which seemed to be his side and is winning on his thread.

I checked out the thread. Very interesting.


Though, George, even as he explained, this was due to the Laws. Whether the laws and ordinances of his religion applied to mine. The answer being no, of course, he feels threatened by this. Because of this, he feels his laws are being replaced. This is specifically what inspired, at least to me, the contents of his thread. But, in a show of good sportsmanship, I will wait.

 

[George-ananda]

Though, George, even as he explained, this was due to the Laws. Whether the laws and ordinances of his religion applied to mine. The answer being no, of course, he feels threatened by this. Because of this, he feels his laws are being replaced. This is specifically what inspired, at least to me, the contents of his thread. But, in a show of good sportsmanship, I will wait.

If he doesn't like change, then the Baha'i Faith is just not for him.

 

[Tumah]

Hear that, @Tumah? and the voting ain't done yet....

I'm not so impressed, since the poll doesn't relate to what I've been telling you this entire time...

 

[Tumah]

Does this mean Jews who believe as you do view all other religions as replacements and/or ones containing replacement theology?

What do you mean by all? I'm talking strictly about the line moving from Judaism to Christianity to Islam to Baha'i and of course their sub-branches mean to replace the main branch.

 

[Tumah]

I checked out the thread. Very interesting.


Though, George, even as he explained, this was due to the Laws. Whether the laws and ordinances of his religion applied to mine. The answer being no, of course, he feels threatened by this. Because of this, he feels his laws are being replaced. This is specifically what inspired, at least to me, the contents of his thread. But, in a show of good sportsmanship, I will wait.

You are completely misunderstanding what I've been telling you. I haven't said that my laws apply to your religion. I've been saying, from the Jewish point of view, Noahide Laws apply to you and your religion shouldn't exist. The creation of your religion after the establishment of my religion's laws, are a replacement of the Noahide Laws.

 

[oldbadger]

613.

Not even you lot bother with that one!!

 

[oldbadger]

Secondly, the UHJ is the spiritual authority of OUR FAITH. The institution does not take the place of secular governments, to which we, as Bahá’ís, are to be unwaveringly obedient.

What a cop out!
While the World is ruled by secular (and religious) governments and theocracies, The Universal House of Justice will say 'We don't get involved in politics!'
But if Billions of folks became Bahais, and a massive majority of people in the World were Bahais, then The Universal House of Justice would be the ruling body in the World! A THEOCRACY!

Laws, and penalties for disobedience are all written, true?
The same applies to a few religions that I can think of. THEOCRACIES in waiting.
Now, which part of that don't you understand?

I would love to see the full list of laws and peenalties that would await a subdued Bahai World...... Scary!

 

[Sundance]

What a cop out!
While the World is ruled by secular (and religious) governments and theocracies, The Universal House of Justice will say 'We don't get involved in politics!'
But if Billions of folks became Bahais, and a massive majority of people in the World were Bahais, then The Universal House of Justice would be the ruling body in the World! A THEOCRACY!

Laws, and penalties for disobedience are all written, true?
The same applies to a few religions that I can think of. THEOCRACIES in waiting.
Now, which part of that don't you understand?

I would love to see the full list of laws and peenalties that would await a subdued Bahai World...... Scary!

Dude, the UHJ wouldn't supplant the government. In fact, a secular government à la mode des United Nations would govern the world if such a thing would happen. But realistically, I don't expect it.

 

[Sundance]

You are completely misunderstanding what I've been telling you. I haven't said that my laws apply to your religion. I've been saying, from the Jewish point of view, Noahide Laws apply to you and your religion shouldn't exist. The creation of your religion after the establishment of my religion's laws, are a replacement of the Noahide Laws.

Again, why should I as a non-Jew, with his own religion which has its OWN SET OF LAWS AND ORDINANCES, replace (there's your word) it with a very scant set of 7 laws, and at most 33.

Another related question, or at least the same question with a different point to consider: why should anyone (let alone me) that's not a Jew be obligated to follow a set of laws which, come to think of it, Jews technically don't even have to accept the existence of?

 

[Sundance]

You are completely misunderstanding what I've been telling you. I haven't said that my laws apply to your religion. I've been saying, from the Jewish point of view, Noahide Laws apply to you and your religion shouldn't exist. The creation of your religion after the establishment of my religion's laws, are a replacement of the Noahide Laws.

Exactly! The Noahide Laws are basically an extension of JEWISH LAW, and thusly, don't apply to me, or Christians, or Muslims. I AM A BAHÁ’Í!!

 

[oldbadger]

Dude, the UHJ wouldn't supplant the government. In fact, a secular government à la mode des United Nations would govern the world if such a thing would happen. But realistically, I don't expect it.

Nope!
Bahai is a Theocracy in waiting (in hoping!).
That's why you have written laws etc!
You even have the death penalty for various offences!
Bahai is a theocracy!

It's no good quoting that you don't take part in politics, etc....... the Jehovash's Witnesses don't take part in politics, but their nucleus could enlarge to become a governing body, just as yours could..... it's just growing a bit faster than yours, I think.

How theocracy happened « Sen McGlinn's blog
https://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/2008/.../how-theocracy-happene/
2 Dec 2008 ... Shoghi Effendi said, “The Baha'i theocracy . . . is both divinely ordained as a
system and, of course, based on the teachings of the Prophet ...
Juan Cole-Fundamentalism in the Contemporary U.S. Baha'i ...
iranscope.ghandchi.com/Anthology/Bahai/fundamentalism.ht
Among Baha'i fundamentalists, this reaction takes the form of a belief in a future
theocracy, in which they expect Baha'i ecclesiastical institutions to take over the ...
Baha'i Theocratic Ideology - Discuss Baha'i Faith - Beliefnet ...
community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/.../Bahai_Theocratic_Ideology
18 Jan 2011 ... Fundamentalism in the Contemporary U.S. Baha'i Community*. Juan R. I. Cole.
University of Michigan. Extract- "The theocratic ideology ...

Bahai-Faith.com – The Baha'i Faith: A Unitarian Universalist View
www.bahai-faith.com/
6 May 2011 ... By Eric Stetson, former member of the Baha'i Faith community ..... Haifan Baha'
ism includes theocracy as one of it's teachings, but it is far from ...

 

[arthra]

Well....the problem is that this poster, who is a member of the first of these (Judaism) thinks their laws should still apply to the subsequent religions, mine included. I contend that if you're not a member of the religion, then that religion's laws do not apply to you.

Yes well I agree it's a sequential order in my view...Some ordinances are suited for the time in which they're revealed... There are laws that are universal and some that are focused on specific issues for the time.

 

[arthra]

So much for the Bhudda's place in your religion.
For nearly fifty years I've have heard Bahais explaining how their faith incorporates the teachings of the Bhudda, and you've just checked all that away.

I know of one Baha'i author that wrote two books on Buddhism some years ago.. "The God of Buddhism" and "The Buddha Amitabha Maitreya has appeared." Jamshid Fozdar was the author's name and both books were printed in India. Most Baha'is that I've encountered would probably believe there some spiritual principles in common with Buddhism.. Moojan Momen wrote a small booklet on Buddhism and the Baha'i Faith and you can read it online at

http://bahai-library.com/momen_encyclopedia_buddhism

 

[arthra]

Why do Baha'i try to get other people to become Baha'i?

Baha'is are obligated to teach the Faith given an audience or if there are inquiries. But we are not to proselytize our Faith:

"Bahá'u'lláh, in 'The Hidden Words', Says 'O Son of Dust! The wise are they that speak not unless they obtain a hearing, even as the cup-bearer, who proffereth not his cup till he findeth a seeker, and the lover who crieth not out from the depths of his heart until he gazeth upon the beauty of his beloved ...', and on page 55 of 'The Advent of Divine Justice', a letter which is primarily, directed towards exhorting the friends to fulfil their responsibilities in teaching the Faith, Shoghi Effendi writes: 'Care, however, should, at all times, be exercised, lest in their eagerness to further the international interests of the Faith they frustrate their purpose, and turn away, through any act that might be misconstrued as an attempt to proselytize and bring undue pressure upon them, those whom they wish to win over to their Cause'. Some Bahá'ís sometimes overstep the proper bounds, but this does not alter the clear principle."

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 592)