Religious Laws

[arthra]

Baha'i intends to replace the theologies of previous religions, with new theologies and doctrines that allows those religions to accept each other in order to attain your New World Order under the banner of Baha'u'lah. Essentially, Baha'i Judaism, Baha'i Christianity and Baha'i Islam.
Baha'i doesn't accept all other religions on their grounds. It wants to mold them into its children. They'll still exist independently, but will reflect Baha'i teachings rather than their own.

I don't know that is the case at all... Baha'i Faith is an independent religion with it's own laws and Writings and Holy Places. We're not interested in supplanting earlier dispensations or creating an amalgam or synthesis of religions. We are active in inter-faith groups such as the Parliament of World Religions and local inter-faith communities.

You can already see a world order developing in the past century through trade, international treaties and world communication through the internet and so on... Baha'is have anticipated these changes through the last century and they are coming about and emerging on their accord.

 

[Sundance]

Yes well I agree it's a sequential order in my view...Some ordinances are suited for the time in which they're revealed... There are laws that are universal and some that are focused on specific issues for the time.

This is true, art.

 

[Tumah]

I don't know that is the case at all... Baha'i Faith is an independent religion with it's own laws and Writings and Holy Places. We're not interested in supplanting earlier dispensations or creating an amalgam or synthesis of religions. We are active in inter-faith groups such as the Parliament of World Religions and local inter-faith communities.

You can already see a world order developing in the past century through trade, international treaties and world communication through the internet and so on... Baha'is have anticipated these changes through the last century and they are coming about and emerging on their accord.

The change Baha'i intends is already reflected in its acceptance of converts from religions whose Laws do not allow conversion out of itself.
But besides for that, the concept of an NWO where all religions accept each other as being revealed from the same god. This as well would require a complete change in theology to conform to this Baha'i view of the unity of religion.

 

[Tumah]

Exactly! The Noahide Laws are basically an extension of JEWISH LAW, and thusly, don't apply to me, or Christians, or Muslims. I AM A BAHÁ’Í!!

That's only from your perspective as a Baha'i. But the G-d of Judaism, sees you (or Christians or Muslims or anyone else that is not Jewish) as a person who refuses to accept the 7 Noahide Laws in favor of following the false teachings of a false prophet. This is a view that Baha'i has supplanted.

 

[Tumah]

Again, why should I as a non-Jew, with his own religion which has its OWN SET OF LAWS AND ORDINANCES, replace (there's your word) it with a very scant set of 7 laws, and at most 33.

Because from the perspective of Judaism, the laws that you follow were given by a false prophet. The Noahide Laws were given by a true prophet. The imperative on everyone is to follow true prophets, not false ones.

Another related question, or at least the same question with a different point to consider: why should anyone (let alone me) that's not a Jew be obligated to follow a set of laws which, come to think of it, Jews technically don't even have to accept the existence of?

I'm not sure what you mean by "Jews technically don't even have to accept the existance of". The Noahide Laws are a part of the Torah. Not accepting a part of the Torah would be heresy. What is it you mean to say?

 

[Sundance]

And @Tumah, I'm throwing this out there: you say that non-Jewish religions don't fulfill the requirements of the Noahide Laws, and they shouldn't exist. Unfortunately, for you, they do exist (obviously!), and – in the minds of many Jews who believe in these Laws, as well as some Rabbis, and even the RaMbaM himself (who considered Islam as being Noahide) – they DO fulfill the requirements of the Laws of Noah. In fact, historically and in modern times, Islam AND Christianity were and are both considered as fulfilling the Laws.

 

[Tumah]

And @Tumah, I'm throwing this out there: you say that non-Jewish religions don't fulfill the requirements of the Noahide Laws, and they shouldn't exist. Unfortunately, for you, they do exist (obviously!), and – in the minds of many Jews who believe in these Laws, as well as some Rabbis, and even the RaMbaM himself (who considered Islam as being Noahide) – they DO fulfill the requirements of the Laws of Noah. In fact, historically and in modern times, Islam AND Christianity were and are both considered as fulfilling the Laws.

To quote my thread on Jewish Noahidism:

The prohibition of keeping the Sabbath includes creating a day of rest on any of the days of the week and not just Saturday.
According to Maimonides, the problem is that it looks like one is creating a new religion. And in fact creating any sort of new religious rituals or celebrations that were not already commanded would fall into this category.​

So no, that is definitely not the stance of Maimonides. The most that can be said about them and a point I believe I mentioned to you earlier, is that in some respects, they do not transgress some of the Noahide Laws. And according to one Rabbi's famous piece on the NT, the original intent of Jesus (or some of the NT authors) may have been to spread Noahidism to the nations. But ultimately, neither religion can actually said to be fulfilling the Noahide Laws as I demonstrated to you with the quotation above from Maimonides.

 

[Sundance]

That's only from your perspective as a Baha'i. But the G-d of Judaism, sees you (or Christians or Muslims or anyone else that is not Jewish) as a person who refuses to accept the 7 Noahide Laws in favor of following the false teachings of a false prophet. This is a view that Baha'i has supplanted.

See my post above. Bahá'u'lláh is not your Prophet. That's fine for you as a Jew, but I am a Bahá’í, a non-Jew. Additionally, my religion would very much be considered as fulfilling the Laws, even if not in your opinion. I have no issue with the Laws or taking them on. You however, as an individual, are my issue. You've really done nothing but be contemptuous towards me. I detest it.

 

[Sundance]

To quote my thread on Jewish Noahidism:

The prohibition of keeping the Sabbath includes creating a day of rest on any of the days of the week and not just Saturday.
According to Maimonides, the problem is that it looks like one is creating a new religion. And in fact creating any sort of new religious rituals or celebrations that were not already commanded would fall into this category.​

So no, that is definitely not the stance of Maimonides. The most that can be said about them and a point I believe I mentioned to you earlier, is that in some respects, they do not transgress some of the Noahide Laws. And according to one Rabbi's famous piece on the NT, the original intent of Jesus (or some of the NT authors) may have been to spread Noahidism to the nations. But ultimately, neither religion can actually said to be fulfilling the Noahide Laws as I demonstrated to you with the quotation above from Maimonides.

This quote, I will contend, pertains to the creation of a seperate Noahide religion, not the already existing religions. Even so, other historical and modern examples of other religions as Noachide are very much present. But that's your call.

 

[Tumah]

See my post above. Bahá'u'lláh is not your Prophet. That's fine for you as a Jew, but I am a Bahá’í, a non-Jew. Additionally, my religion would very much be considered as fulfilling the Laws, even if not in your opinion. I have no issue with the Laws or taking them on. You however, as an individual, are my issue. You've really done nothing but be contemptuous towards me. I detest it.

I can see that you've shut down and are not trying to understand what I've been trying to explain to you. I've already demonstrated to you that your religion can't be considered fulfilling the Noahide Laws, but rather than disprove me, you've just continued to disagree with me. That's not really a debate.
I don't think I've shown you any contempt as I haven't been attacking you or your religion. All I've been trying to do this entire time is explain to you what Baha'i's existence means to the religions prior to it. I don't think anymore badly about Baha'i than I do about Christianity or Islam or any other religion. I haven't felt any type of emotional connection to this conversation, so I don't think I've been contemptuous. All I've been trying to do is explain a concept inherent in your religion, not disprove your religion or call it out or anything like that.

 

[Sundance]

Because from the perspective of Judaism, the laws that you follow were given by a false prophet. The Noahide Laws were given by a true prophet. The imperative on everyone is to follow true prophets, not false ones.

Again, the two examples: Christianity and Islam....non-Jewish religions.


I'm not sure what you mean by "Jews technically don't even have to accept the existance of". The Noahide Laws are a part of the Torah. Not accepting a part of the Torah would be heresy. What is it you mean to say?[/QUOTE]

I mean what I said. Ask your coreligionists if you don't believe me.

 

[Tumah]

This quote, I will contend, pertains to the creation of a seperate Noahide religion, not the already existing religions. Even so, other historical and modern examples of other religions as Noachide are very much present. But that's your call.

By not already commanded, I meant "not commanded within the Noahide Laws or at Mt. Sinai". Not "not commanded from the time of Maimonides". Maimonides is not allowed to establish new parameters for Laws, he's only explaining what already exists. So for instance, to keep the Baha'i's Friday day of rest would be a transgression of the Noahide prohibition.

 

[Sundance]

I can see that you've shut down and are not trying to understand what I've been trying to explain to you. I've already demonstrated to you that your religion can't be considered fulfilling the Noahide Laws, but rather than disprove me, you've just continued to disagree with me. That's not really a debate.
I don't think I've shown you any contempt as I haven't been attacking you or your religion. All I've been trying to do this entire time is explain to you what Baha'i's existence means to the religions prior to it. I don't think anymore badly about Baha'i than I do about Christianity or Islam or any other religion. I haven't felt any type of emotional connection to this conversation, so I don't think I've been contemptuous. All I've been trying to do is explain a concept inherent in your religion, not disprove your religion or call it out or anything like that.

Actually, all you've really done is say this, not legitimately prove it. Show me which of the Seven does my faith contradict? And why?

 

[Tumah]

Again, the two examples: Christianity and Islam....non-Jewish religions.

Yes, those would also be examples of religions that were started by false prophets.

I mean what I said. Ask your coreligionists if you don't believe me.

Are you asking if its possible for Jews to become heretics while maintaining a Jewish identity? The answer is yes.

 

[Sundance]

By not already commanded, I meant "not commanded within the Noahide Laws or at Mt. Sinai". Not "not commanded from the time of Maimonides". Maimonides is not allowed to establish new parameters for Laws, he's only explaining what already exists. So for instance, to keep the Baha'i's Friday day of rest would be a transgression of the Noahide prohibition.

Bahá’ís, we don't HAVE a day of rest. Strike one.

 

[Tumah]

Actually, all you've really done is say this, not legitimately prove it. Show me which of the Seven does my faith contradict? And why?

Did I just quote to you from Maimonides?

 

[Tumah]

Bahá’ís, we don't HAVE a day of rest. Strike one.

The Bahá'í week starts on Saturday, and ends on Friday.[22] Like Judaism and Islam, days begin at sunset and end at sunset of the following solar day. Bahá'í writings indicate that Friday is to be kept as a day of rest.[23][24] The practice of keeping Friday as a day of rest is currently not observed in all countries; for example, in the UK, the National Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá’ís confirmed it does not currently keep this practice.[25]
Wikipedia.​

It looks like it exists whether you keep it or not.

 

[Sundance]

Yes, those would also be examples of religions that were started by false prophets.

False prophets, false religions for a Jew, not for not-Jews. For non-Jews, Christianity, Islam, other religions are considered acceptable.

 

[Sundance]

The Bahá'í week starts on Saturday, and ends on Friday.[22] Like Judaism and Islam, days begin at sunset and end at sunset of the following solar day. Bahá'í writings indicate that Friday is to be kept as a day of rest.[23][24] The practice of keeping Friday as a day of rest is currently not observed in all countries; for example, in the UK, the National Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá’ís confirmed it does not currently keep this practice.[25]
Wikipedia.​

It looks like it exists whether you keep it or not.

Ah, so it does. Groovy! But wait, look at the duration, Tumah. Friday? Despite the difference in the numerical order, does this not overlap with Sabbath?

 

[Sundance]

Did I just quote to you from Maimonides?

Did I not alreaxy address your quote previously?