Religious Laws

[oldbadger]

You, ob, I'm going to ignore....

Of course you are.......
You are losing ground?

 

[Sundance]

All Tumah is trying to explain to you DJ_sXe, as far as I understand, is that there are points upon which the Baha'i Faith contradicts Judaism. So as far as these points are concerned, the Baha'i Faith is a replacement of Judaism from a Baha'i perspective. For example, according to (Orthodox) Jewish Law, people who aren't of the Jewish nation are forbidden to have their own religions, but must simply follow the Noahide Laws alone. This is, if one accepts the validity of Judaism and Jewish Law, binding upon all non-Jews. So the Baha'i Faith contradicts Judaism in this regard by saying it is OK for a religion other than Judaism to exist in the world, meaning it does not accept Orthodox Judaism as a totally valid religion, but one that needs some of its facets replaced. That's it, really, he isn't launching any kind of attack or going into any great complexity (unusually, on the latter point!).

Kirran, again, for Tumah, this is his opinion. Also, and again, Christianity already replaced Judaism a loooong time ago (but even so, Christianity can be considered in the eyes of many Jews, including some Rabbis), so he's just flogging a dead horse at this point. His opinion on the matter is but one that exists among Jews, mine would be another that exists among Jews. He doesn't like this. Simple. In the end, I will leave him to his own opinion.

 

[Kirran]

Kirran, again, for Tumah, this is his opinion. Also, and again, Christianity already replaced Judaism a loooong time ago (but even so, Christianity can be considered in the eyes of many Jews, including some Rabbis), so he's just flogging a dead horse at this point. His opinion on the matter is but one that exists among Jews, mine would be another that exists among Jews. He doesn't like this. Simple. In the end, I will leave him to his own opinion.

Just because Christianity attempts to replace Judaism doesn't mean Islam and the Baha'i Faith don't also do so.

According to Orthodox Jewish understanding, non-Jewish religions aren't allowed, so to say Christianity upholds the Noahide Laws is a contradiction in terms. Honestly, I don't think you've really understood his point from the beginning of this whole kerfuffle.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No. Their conclusions, as Muslims, are theirs. We disagree, yes, but we won't fight them on it.

I'm confused: this is the second time you said you disagreed with me and then go on to explain your position in a way that implies you agree with me.

Unfortunately, I cannot say the same the other way around.

Yeah - Baha'i treatmeng in Muslim countries has been horrendous. Nobody should be killed or thrown in jail just for believing differently.

 

[Tumah]

Just because Christianity attempts to replace Judaism doesn't mean Islam and the Baha'i Faith don't also do so.

According to Orthodox Jewish understanding, non-Jewish religions aren't allowed, so to say Christianity upholds the Noahide Laws is a contradiction in terms. Honestly, I don't think you've really understood his point from the beginning of this whole kerfuffle.

I don't know how else to phrase it to be more clear.

 

[Sundance]

Just because Christianity attempts to replace Judaism doesn't mean Islam and the Baha'i Faith don't also do so.

According to Orthodox Jewish understanding, non-Jewish religions aren't allowed, so to say Christianity upholds the Noahide Laws is a contradiction in terms. Honestly, I don't think you've really understood his point from the beginning of this whole kerfuffle.

I absolutely understand his point. Again, this is from the ORTHODOX JEWISH perspective. Orthodox Judaism is NOT representative of all of Judaism. Simple and plain. Do you understand, dear Kirran?

 

[Rival]

I'm sorry @Tumah; truth isn't happening right now.

 

[Sundance]

I don't know how else to phrase it to be more clear.

And again, this is your understanding, as an Orthodox Jew. Orthodox Judaism is not representative of all Judaism. Nowhere near so. Other Jews have and have had other opinions on the topic. Do YOU understand THIS, Tumah?

 

[Sundance]

I'm confused: this is the second time you said you disagreed with me and then go on to explain your position in a way that implies you agree with me.

Penguin, I was referring to Muslims and Bahá’ís, and the differences in understanding. Not you and I. Even so, different religions are allowed different understandings of the same things, aren't they?

Yeah - Baha'i treatmeng in Muslim countries has been horrendous. Nobody should be killed or thrown in jail just for believing differently.

Of course.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Penguin, I was referring to Muslims and Bahá’ís, and the differences in understanding. Not you and I.

So was I.

Even so, different religions are allowed different understandings of the same things, aren't they?

Yes: different religions are allowed to think that each other is incorrect.

 

[Kirran]

I absolutely understand his point. Again, this is from the ORTHODOX JEWISH perspective. Orthodox Judaism is NOT representative of all of Judaism. Simple and plain. Do you understand, dear Kirran?

Yeah, you've got Conservative Judaism and Progressive Judaism (with its different flavours). Which one do you see as being the one which you're not replacing? Orthodox Judaism does seem to always have been the largest denomination.

This is insofar as we look to denominationalism in Judaism at all, as it is largely a modern day Ashkenazi construct.

But I am glad you specified here, as this implies that according to the Baha'i Faith there is a revealed form of Judaism other than the Orthodox, and it is this which you do not contradict.

 

[Sundance]

So was I.

Hm, indeed.

Yes: different religions are allowed to think that each other is incorrect.

Methinks it's not in the difference unto itself, but how it's approached. In any case, you're right. I concede to you.

 

[Sundance]

Yeah, you've got Conservative Judaism and Progressive Judaism (with its different flavours). Which one do you see as being the one which you're not replacing? Orthodox Judaism does seem to always have been the largest denomination.

This is insofar as we look to denominationalism in Judaism at all, as it is largely a modern day Ashkenazi construct.

But I am glad you specified here, as this implies that according to the Baha'i Faith there is a revealed form of Judaism other than the Orthodox, and it is this which you do not contradict.

Understood, Kirran. But again, it's a ‘dead horse’.....long dead. I'm not concerned with it. Though, I don't think you really understand the concept of progression in religion.

 

[Kirran]

Understood, Kirran. But again, it's a ‘dead horse’.....long dead. I'm not concerned with it. Though, I don't think you really understand the concept of progression in religion.

OK, so for our education then - when the Baha'i Faith talks about Judaism, which variety does it mean?

Well yeah, I get what you mean by progression in Baha'i, which I'd say is more an Abrahamic thing than a religion thing per se, which is that new revelations and systems are given to us which are appropriate to our times but which continue the progress made with and through previous ones, while maintaining certain core truths like dualistic monotheism.

 

[Sundance]

OK, so for our education then - when the Baha'i Faith talks about Judaism, which variety does it mean?

Well yeah, I get what you mean by progression in Baha'i, which I'd say is more an Abrahamic thing than a religion thing per se, which is that new revelations and systems are given to us which are appropriate to our times but which continue the progress made with and through previous ones, while maintaining certain core truths like dualistic monotheism.

My answer to both questions is one and the same:


You really don't understand this concept.


Judaism....
Christianity....
Islam...
The Bahá’í Faith....


Figure it out, it isn't hard, Kirran. I'll give you time.

 

[LuisDantas]

There is some worth in reflecting a bit on the roles of agreement and disagreement on proper religious practice.

In some fairly usual circunstances disagreement is both expected and actually healthy, without necessarily reflecting animosity or disrespect.

I assume people will also disagree on how they are expected to relate to their own religious laws, up to and including whether there are any.

 

[Sundance]

There is some worth in reflecting a bit on the roles of agreement and disagreement on proper religious practice.

In some fairly usual circunstances disagreement is both expected and actually healthy, without necessarily reflecting animosity or disrespect.

I assume people will also disagree on how they are expected to relate to their own religious laws, up to and including whether there are any.

I agree.

 

[Kirran]

My answer to both questions is one and the same:


You really don't understand this concept.


Judaism....
Christianity....
Islam...
The Bahá’í Faith....


Figure it out, it isn't hard, Kirran. I'll give you time.

I'll roll with the patronising tone: I'm too stupid. Spell it out for me.

 

[Sundance]

I'll roll with the patronising tone: I'm too stupid. Spell it out for me.

If you don't understand, not my problem.

 

[Kirran]

If you don't understand, not my problem.

I'm not that familiar with Baha'ism so I'm basically taking what you say at face value. Based on that, I haven't really got a good understanding of the Baha'i take on religious progression if what I said before was wrong. So I'm not so sure where discussion on whether or not the Baha'i Faith aims to replace Judaism in all or any aspects can go if you don't want to explain it to me. I do get that everyone here, yourself included, probably feels like they've been bashing their head against a wall for a while by now!