Religious Laws

[Sundance]

Hey, all you beautiful souls! In response to a poster who challenged me in an argument that in my acceptance of his religion as legitimate, as valid, the laws of his religion should apply to me, as a member of another religion, and not my own. The background? I'm a Bahá’í. I accept Judaism, Christianity, and Islam as being Religions from God. So, what's the problem, Dev?


Well....the problem is that this poster, who is a member of the first of these (Judaism) thinks their laws should still apply to the subsequent religions, mine included. I contend that if you're not a member of the religion, then that religion's laws do not apply to you. Especially, since each one has its own laws. It is utterly insane to suggest this. The poster, whose name I dare not to speak, seems to have a troubling time grasping this concept. Although, they know it to be true, as I've tried to explain to this person at least thirteen times, now. Help me out, if you would be so kind.

I'm gonna open this thread up to primarily all my Abrahamic brothers and sisters! Jews, Christians, Muslims, Bahá’ís! Of course, who could forget my brothers and sisters who are followers of other religions, too, due to the location of the thread?


Should the laws of one religion apply to the followers of the subsequent (or any other) religion(s)? Should one be expected to follow religious laws which are not meant for their religion? Yes or no, and why?

 

[psychoslice]

Of course it shouldn't, that goes without say.

 

[LuisDantas]

On the one hand, I am not positive on what it actually means for a religious law to apply to anyone.

On the other, I find it unadvisable to lend too much weight to the notion that a religion was given by God, even in doctrines that explicitly use such a deity concept.

So I guess the question is not clear enough to have an actual answer far as I am concerned.

 

[Sundance]

On the one hand, I am not positive on what it actually means for a religious law to apply to anyone.

On the other, I find it unadvisable to lend too much weight to the notion that a religion was given by God, even in doctrines that explicitly use such a deity concept.

So I guess the question is not clear enough to have an actual answer far as I am concerned.

Fair enough, Luis. But let me ask you this, very simply: as a Buddhist, do you feel that Christian laws should apply to you? Or Hindu laws? Or Islamic law? Do you feel that you should be expected to follow them?

 

[psychoslice]

I follow my own heart, and of course the law of the land, not religion.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Laws of humanity should apply to all religions, what is known as 'dharma' in Indian religions.

 

[Tumah]

Hey, all you beautiful souls! In response to a poster who challenged me in an argument that in my acceptance of his religion as legitimate, as valid, the laws of his religion should apply to me, as a member of another religion, and not my own. The background? I'm a Bahá’í. I accept Judaism, Christianity, and Islam as being Religions from God. So, what's the problem, Dev?


Well....the problem is that this poster, who is a member of the first of these (Judaism) thinks their laws should still apply to the subsequent religions, mine included. I contend that if you're not a member of the religion, then that religion's laws do not apply to you. Especially, since each one has its own laws. It is utterly insane to suggest this. The poster, whose name I dare not to speak, seems to have a troubling time grasping this concept. Although, they know it to be true, as I've tried to explain to this person at least thirteen times, now. Help me out, if you would be so kind.

I'm gonna open this thread up to primarily all my Abrahamic brothers and sisters! Jews, Christians, Muslims, Bahá’ís! Of course, who could followers of other religions, too, due to the location of the thread.


Should the laws of one religion apply to the followers of the subsequent (or any other) religion(s)? Should one be expected to follow religious laws which are not meant for their religion? Yes or no, and why?

You aren't understanding what I've said. I didn't say that the Noahide Laws should apply to you as a Baha'i. I said, according to the Noahide Laws of my religion, your religion shouldn't exist. Which makes your religion a contradiction to my religion. If your religion's creator understood that, then that means he intended to replace my religion's laws.

The question of whether my religion's laws should apply to you isn't really debatable. Religious laws in my religion aren't decided on by popular opinion. Just like Christians believe that the entire world population (including those of other religions) should be Christian. And Muslims believe the entire world population (including those of other religions) should be Muslim. My religion believes that the entire world population (including those of other religions) should follow the Noahide Laws.

Each subsequent religion's views on this subject, replace the previous religion's theological view on the subject.

The question is, the position of my religion with regards to you as a non-Jew being as it is, does your religion replace my religion or does it not. Since my religion already had a plan for you and your religion came later and contradicted that plan, it's a replacement.

 

[LuisDantas]

Fair enough, Luis. But let me ask you this, very simply: as a Buddhist, do you feel that Christian laws should apply to you? Or Hindu laws? Or Islamic law? Do you feel that you should be expected to follow them?

Leaving aside for a moment that I just said that I am not clear on what it imeans for a relgious law to apply for anyone, it seems to me Christian Laws, specifically, may not apply even to Christians, if those Gospel verses about how Jesus approves of violating Sabbath law when the consequences are worth it are any indication.

I believe Mark 2:27 is the one. There may be others.

http://www.religiousforums.com/bible/mark/2:27/

Generally speaking, the role of religious law in Judaism seems to be what I will call communal; in Christianity it is complex or even vague; in Islam it is an unhealthy obsession; in Buddhism there are no laws to speak of, only precepts that are fairly personal in meaning and interpretation.

I'm actually not sure the idea of religious law exists outside the Abrahamic faiths.

 

[Sundance]

You aren't understanding what I've said. I didn't say that the Noahide Laws should apply to you as a Baha'i. I said, according to the Noahide Laws of my religion, your religion shouldn't exist. Which makes your religion a contradiction to my religion. If your religion's creator understood that, then that means he intended to replace my religion's laws.

The question of whether my religion's laws should apply to you isn't really debatable. Religious laws in my religion aren't decided on by popular opinion. Just like Christians believe that the entire world population (including those of other religions) should be Christian. And Muslims believe the entire world population (including those of other religions) should be Muslim. My religion believes that the entire world population (including those of other religions) should follow the Noahide Laws.

Each subsequent religion's views on this subject, replace the previous religion's theological view on the subject.

The question is, the position of my religion with regards to you as a non-Jew being as it is, does your religion replace my religion or does it not. Since my religion already had a plan for you and your religion came later and contradicted that plan, it's a replacement.

Again, like with Christianity and Islam, the Bahá’í Faith gives due to props to previous Religions in affirming their worth and value. However, this does not mean that the laws of the previous religion applies to the later one. So, yes in this regard, mine replaced yours (and that's for me, at least). Your laws don't apply to me. Simple and plain. I value your Religion, your Scriptures, but I don't follow it, because again, I have my own religion. It's for me and whoever decides to become a Bahá’í. Not for Jews, not for Christians, not for Muslims, not for anyone else. And yes, you may not have said explicitly that the Noahide Laws should apply to me, but Tumah, you very much implied it. Either way, I don't dig it. As you've made clear, those laws exist in a Jewish context. Therefore, according to you, the only religion legitimate for even non-Jews is still...Judaism. In any case, I'm not Jewish. Understood? Why should any set of laws, Noahide or any other that Jews have apply to me. I don't care, why should I?

 

[Sundance]

Leaving aside for a moment that I just said that I am not clear on what it imeans for a relgious law to apply for anyone, it seems to me Christian Laws, specifically, may not apply even to Christians, if those Gospel verses about how Jesus approves of violating Sabbath law when the consequences are worth it are any indication.

I believe Mark 2:27 is the one. There may be others.

http://www.religiousforums.com/bible/mark/2:27/

Generally speaking, the role of religious law in Judaism seems to be what I will call communal; in Christianity it is complex or even vague; in Islam it is an unhealthy obsession; in Buddhism there are no laws to speak of, only precepts that are fairly personal in meaning and interpretation.

I'm actually not sure the idea of religious law exists outside the Abrahamic faiths.

Understood, dear Luis. Initially, I had followers of the Abrahamic religions in mind.

 

[Tumah]

Again, like with Christianity and Islam, the Bahá’í Faith gives due to props to previous Religions in affirming their worth and value. However, this does not mean that the laws of the previous religion applies to the later one. So, yes in this regard, mine replaced yours (for me, at least). Your laws don't apply to me. I value your Religion, your Scriptures, but I don't follow it, because again, I have my own religion. It's for me and whoever decides to become a Bahá’í. Not for Jews, not for Christians, not for Muslims, not for anyone else. And yes, you may not have said explicitly that the Noahide Laws should apply to me, but Tumah, you very much implied it. Either way, I don't dig it. As you've made clear, those laws exist in a Jewish context. Therefore, according to you, the only religion legitimate for even non-Jews is still...Judaism.

Giving "due props" is not the same as "not contradicting". And as you've admitted here, Baha'i is replacing the previous religion's laws. Which is all I'm trying to say.

If I haven't explicitly said it (although I feel like I probably did), then I will say it now. Of course the Noahide Laws apply to you as a non-Jew, because all non-Jews are meant to follow them. Whether you "dig it" or not. You don't have to like it. But its there. And your religion's stance on the issue contradicts and by extension replaces my religion's Law about you.
And that's all I've been trying to say the whole time.

 

[Sundance]

Giving "due props" is not the same as "not contradicting". And as you've admitted here, Baha'i is replacing the previous religion's laws. Which is all I'm trying to say.

If I haven't explicitly said it (although I feel like I probably did), then I will say it now. Of course the Noahide Laws apply to you as a non-Jew, because all non-Jews are meant to follow them. Whether you "dig it" or not. You don't have to like it. But its there. And your religion's stance on the issue contradicts and by extension replaces my religion's Law about you.
And that's all I've been trying to say the whole time.

And again, that replacement of the Laws, that creation of a new set of Laws only applies to that group, that religion, that community, NOT THE PREVIOUS, or really, any other. It does not affect you, at all. Anything that your religion may say regarding me does not impact me, whatsoever. It applies to you, no doubt, and that's awesome. My religious Laws for my community take precedence over yours. Deal with it. I am a Bahá’í, not a Jew. Thank God, you finally understand this clearly!

Though, it's just not my religion, is it? You do it to all the different non-Jewish religions, don't you?


But I guess maybe that's why your religion is very peculiar to me. You create a separate set of Laws for non-Jews, basically teaching them the same things that their religions may teach or do already teach, in effect doing the same thing you constantly accuse my religion of. Replacing the previous Religion’s laws. Why is this necessary? No other religion I know of does this. When you can figure that out, then come and talk to me about replacement of a set of laws.

FYI, just because I accept your religion as legitimate and valid, doesn't mean I absolutely agree with everything it teaches. This is, unfortunately, where you, Tumah, messed up, but, that's life, c'est la vie.... All in all, to you be your religion, and to me, mine.

 

[Tumah]

And again, that replacement of the Laws, that creation of a new set of Laws only applies to that group, that religion, that community, NOT THE PREVIOUS. It does not affect you, at all. Anything that your religion may say regarding me does not impact me, whatsoever. It applies to you, no doubt. My religious Laws for my community take precedence over yours. Deal with it. I am a Bahá’í, not a Jew. Though, it's just not my religion, is it? You do it to all the different non-Jewish religions, don't you?

Of course its not just your religion. I'm not singling out Baha'i, nor am I attacking it. I'm only explaining how Baha'i theology although said to be inclusive of all religions, is actually doing the same thing that Christianity and Islam are doing: replacing the previous religion with their own theology.
Under the theology of Judaism, one may not be Christian. Under the theology of Christianity, one may be Christian. Christianity has replaced Judaism.
Under Christian theology, one may not become Muslim. Under Islamic theology, one may be Muslim. Muslim theology has replaced Christianity.
Under Islamic theology, one may not become Baha'i. Under Baha'i theology, one may be Baha'i. Baha'i theology has replaced Islam.

This is replacement theology. While you are not replacing the entire religion, you are altering or replacing the elements of the previous religion(s) that contradict your own, in order to make room for your religion to exist.

But I guess maybe that's why your religion is very peculiar to me. You create a separate set of Laws for non-Jews, basically teaching them the same things that their religions may teach or do already teach. When you can figure that out, then come and talk to me.

It is similar superficially, that is true. But it has some very important differentiating characteristics. The underlying reason, the "heart" if you will, has to be to do the action with the correct intent- that is, as an expression of following the Seven Noahide laws that G-d gave to all humanity. So for instance, not killing someone because Baha'u'llah teaches you not to, would be an incidental reason from the perspective of Judaism. This particular example wouldn't be a transgression. But it wouldn't be a fulfillment of the Law either.
This is a concept that exists in Jewish Law as well. If I were to wear a fringe garment because I think it looks cool, rather than because I want to fulfill G-d's commandment, I wouldn't be fulfilling the Law. In some cases, I'd even have to perform the requirement over again because the first time wouldn't count.

FYI, just because I accept your religion as legitimate and valid, doesn't mean I absolutely agree with everything it teaches. This is, unfortunately, where you, Tumah, messed up, but, c'est la vie....

You don't need to agree with it, nor am I trying to convince you of its truth. All I'm trying to do is explain to you how your religion's laws and ordinances effectively replaces (or in some cases reinterprets) other religion's laws and ordinances. That's all I've been trying to do. I'm not saying its bad or good. Christianity and Islam do it and Christianity even has a name for it "supersessionism". For some reason though, you've been having a ton of trouble accepting that this concept is a part of your religion as well.

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

Basic Laws of humanity (society) should apply to all. Like Murder, Stealing,
Non consenting aggression /sex etc. And probably those that may be required
to keep the community safe and in harmony ...

 

[Sundance]

Of course its not just your religion. I'm not singling out Baha'i, nor am I attacking it. I'm only explaining how Baha'i theology although said to be inclusive of all religions, is actually doing the same thing that Christianity and Islam are doing: replacing the previous religion with their own theology.
Under the theology of Judaism, one may not be Christian. Under the theology of Christianity, one may be Christian. Christianity has replaced Judaism.
Under Christian theology, one may not become Muslim. Under Islamic theology, one may be Muslim. Muslim theology has replaced Christianity.
Under Islamic theology, one may not become Baha'i. Under Baha'i theology, one may be Baha'i. Baha'i theology has replaced Islam.

This is replacement theology. While you are not replacing the entire religion, you are altering or replacing the elements of the previous religion(s) that contradict your own, in order to make room for your religion to exist.

What the....? I'm not saying my religion doesn't do that. Dude, this is natural. It happens all the time. That's how different religions develop in the first place, if you didn't already know. Religions do not exist in a vacuum. Though, all this time, you've made it sound like we Bahá’ís are here to wipe previous religions off the face of the earth. We're not, rest assured. And anyway, why and how would we do something like that? Force?! We're explicitly prohibited from forcing our religion onto people.

It is similar superficially, that is true. But it has some very important differentiating characteristics. The underlying reason, the "heart" if you will, has to be to do the action with the correct intent- that is, as an expression of following the Seven Noahide laws that G-d gave to all humanity. So for instance, not killing someone because Baha'u'llah teaches you not to, would be an incidental reason from the perspective of Judaism. This particular example wouldn't be a transgression. But it wouldn't be a fulfillment of the Law either.
This is a concept that exists in Jewish Law as well. If I were to wear a fringe garment because I think it looks cool, rather than because I want to fulfill G-d's commandment, I wouldn't be fulfilling the Law. In some cases, I'd even have to perform the requirement over again because the first time wouldn't count.

I agree with some of this, namely that the spirit behind why you follow the Laws is important. I hear you, and I understand what you're trying to say.

You don't need to agree with it, nor am I trying to convince you of its truth. All I'm trying to do is explain to you how your religion's laws and ordinances effectively replaces (or in some cases reinterprets) other religion's laws and ordinances. That's all I've been trying to do. I'm not saying its bad or good. Christianity and Islam do it and Christianity even has a name for it "supersessionism". For some reason though, you've been having a ton of trouble accepting that this concept is a part of your religion as well.

Again, yeah I know we do that. Of course we've done that. Like I said, religions don't exist in a vacuum. My trouble, again, is thus far, you've made it sound like we're trying to completely wipe out Judaism, or any other religion, from the face of the earth. We have no interests whatsoever in doing so. Why would we do that? How would we do that?

 

[Tumah]

What the....? I'm not saying my religion doesn't do that. Dude, this is natural. It happens all the time. That's how different religions develop in the first place, if you didn't already know. Religions do not exist in a vacuum. Though, all this time, you've made it sound like we Bahá’ís are here to wipe previous religions off the face of the earth. We're not, rest assured. And anyway, why and how would we do something like that? Force?! We're explicitly prohibited from forcing our religion onto people.



I agree with some of this, namely that the spirit behind why you follow the Laws is important. I hear you, and I understand what you're trying to say.



Again, yeah I know we do that. Of course we've done that. Like I said, religions don't exist in a vacuum. My trouble, again, is thus far, you've made it sound like we're trying to completely wipe out Judaism, or any other religion, from the face of the earth. We have no interests whatsoever in doing so. Why would we do that? How would we do that?

I have not once said (perhaps unlike this poster here) that you are trying to wipe out Judaism or any other religion. I've been saying that you are replacing it.

Baha'i is meant to replace the spiritual needs of the people of this "age" that other religions previously fulfilled.
Baha'i intends to replace the theologies of previous religions, with new theologies and doctrines that allows those religions to accept each other in order to attain your New World Order under the banner of Baha'u'lah. Essentially, Baha'i Judaism, Baha'i Christianity and Baha'i Islam.

Baha'i doesn't accept all other religions on their grounds. It wants to mold them into its children. They'll still exist independently, but will reflect Baha'i teachings rather than their own.

How? I don't know. I recall reading somewhere that even Shoghi Effendi didn't know how the NWO would happen and that time would reveal it or something along those lines.

 

[oldbadger]

.............. I'm a Bahá’í. I accept Judaism, Christianity, and Islam as being Religions from God.

So much for the Bhudda's place in your religion.
For nearly fifty years I've have heard Bahais explaining how their faith incorporates the teachings of the Bhudda, and you've just checked all that away.

I contend that if you're not a member of the religion, then that religion's laws do not apply to you.

But you've already explained that your God is the God of Abrahan, Moses and the Israelites, so you would need to focus on the 612 laws given by God to them.

It is utterly insane to suggest this.

And now you call us, who think that you should not cherery-pick the OT laws...... are utterly insane?
I can just see it now..... if enough people in the world would become Bahais and the Bahai Universal House of Justice take theocratic rule of the world, any who question you might dissappear into asylums?

I'm gonna open this thread up to primarily all my Abrahamic brothers and sisters! Jews, Christians, Muslims, Bahá’ís! Of course, who could followers of other religions, too, due to the location of the thread.

....and so you would have prefered to exclude a considerable % of members....... so you're an exclusive community?

Should the laws of one religion apply to the followers of the subsequent (or any other) religion(s)?

Ah ha!....... so you're wobbling there, by including 'or any other religions' you are clearly seeking to hide.
Bahais show clear prejudice against Females, Gays, Polysexuals, and the list of offences that would carry the death penalty has yet to be completed and published, I suspect......... showing that you cling to many OT laws and apply a prudish and unhealthy attitude towards sexual relationships.

So you might as well pick up the 612 laws issued by God to the prophets mentioned in the OT. At least then you would be commanded over issues such as the poor, giving to the poor, relaxing financial pressures upon the poor, etc etc.....

So.... yes..... stop chery-picking and collect the lot!

 

[Tumah]

....[snip]...
But you've already explained that your God is the God of Abrahan, Moses and the Israelites, so you would need to focus on the 612 laws given by God to them
....[snippity]...
So you might as well pick up the 612 laws issued by God to the prophets mentioned in the OT.
....[snipsnapsnoop]...

613.

 

[Sundance]

I have not once said (perhaps unlike this poster here) that you are trying to wipe out Judaism or any other religion. I've been saying that you are replacing it.

I never said that you said it. I said you make it sound like we're trying to wipe out previous religions.

Baha'i is meant to replace the spiritual needs of the people of this "age" that other religions previously fulfilled.
Baha'i intends to replace the theologies of previous religions, with new theologies and doctrines that allows those religions to accept each other in order to attain your New World Order under the banner of Baha'u'lah. Essentially, Baha'i Judaism, Baha'i Christianity and Baha'i Islam.

Uhhhhh....no, we don't. We offer another way of looking at previous religions, a different interpretation of their Scriptures, Teachings, stories recorded in the Scriptures, but such applies to our own religion, NOT THE PREVIOUS RELIGIONS. Judaism will still be Judaism, Christianity will still be Christianity, and Islam, Islam. The Bahá’í Faith is an INDEPENDENT RELIGION.

Baha'i doesn't accept all other religions on their grounds. It wants to mold them into its children. They'll still exist independently, but will reflect Baha'i teachings rather than their own.

No, we don't. Again, we offer people different another way of looking at the different religions. Our interpretations thereof DO NOT impact or affect the previous religions whatsoever.

How? I don't know. I recall reading somewhere that even Shoghi Effendi didn't know how the NWO would happen and that time would reveal it or something along those lines.

Well, then, in such a case, the only thing left to do is let time reveal it.

 

[Kirran]

Why do Baha'i try to get other people to become Baha'i?