Tumah
Veteran Member
Yes. And then I explained to you how you were mistaken.
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Religious Laws
- Thread starter Sundance
- Start date
Tumah
Veteran Member
I understand that. And according to Jewish Law they are mistaken.
Not exactly. Those religions are forbidden to Jews, but for non-Jews, those religions are acceptable. I guess maybe this is why Jews don't proselytize.
Tumah
Veteran Member
Depending on what Friday means. Friday in respect to a Baha'i calendar could mean from Thursday night to Friday night. In which case it wouldn't.
But whether its how I understand it or how you understand it, according to the quote I cited to you, keeping any day as a religious day of rest is problematic. Whether its on Friday, Saturday, Sunday or any other day of the week.
Tumah
Veteran Member
No, exactly. According to Jewish Law they are mistaken. According to their own laws, they are not. They believe that their laws supplant Jewish Laws and so they don't accept our position as valid. But there it is.
I stand corrected, Tumah. I humbly concede to you on this point, Tumah. Although, as I'm sure you noticed from even the earlier quote, Bahá’ís don't tend to keep the day of rest in many countries.
I will not challenge you here, as you are far more knowledgeable than myself on matters of halakhah. (Hopefully, I spelled this right.)
Though, you have to admit, the historical and modern adoption of the Noahide Laws by many non-Jews (furthered by the acceptance of the religions of the same as fulfilling the Laws) speaks to the Truth of Judaism, like I told you, all the subsequent religion accept Judaism as a Divinely Revealed Religion, mine included.
This supplanting of Laws is merely referring to the rejection of those 613 mitzvot that were given specifically to religious Jews. Are Christians Jews? Are Muslims Jews? Are Bahá’ís Jews? The Noahide Laws are basically the Laws for non-Jews, right? I suppose in this regard, the universality of Judaism, you were again right, as a good friend of mine (who is a Bahá’í, like myself) has recently reminded me.
Seriously, though, Tumah, are you actually suggesting that the 613 mitzvot be applied to non-Jews?
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Tumah
Veteran Member
I appreciate that.
No it doesn't. There are groups of people that follow what they now call "Noahidism". Its divorced from any other religion besides Judaism, the way its supposed to be.
Not only, but also. In the examples I've given previously, in the respect that Baha'i allows Jews to convert to Baha'i, they are effectively allowing Jews to transgress their commandments. From the Baha'i point of view, the Jew is not transgressing any prohibition. This is replacing for the Jew his original prohibition.
But as well in a broader sense, Bahai'i is replacing the Noahide Laws for all mankind. Although there are some similarities between Baha'i (and other religions) and the Noahide Laws, as I explained to you previously, it is not a fulfillment of these Laws. Rather its an entirely new system. So in this respect it replaces G-d's intended Laws for non-Jews, with a new set.
With regards to non-Jews I'm referring to the Noahide Laws and with regard to Jews I'm referring to 613 Laws. As well as the theologies that are a part of Judaism in general. All of that is replaced in some way or another, in Baha'i.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Hello Arthra. Thankyou for your post.
The above sentence must be one of the most dismissive from Buddhism that I have read in some time.
Most Bahai's....... probably believe..... some spiritual principles......
The Bahai Faith does not hold the Buddha, his life, his vocation, his teachings or his objective as high as it does of Islam, Christianity or Judaism; that much is clear. This is sad, because I remember when Bahai's believed that their faith held Buddha in the same degree of esteem and holiness as any of the Abrahamic prophets. They also spoke of Zooraster and others, and I once heard an aged Bahai explain that there had been 9000 prophets, but most were so holy and humble that nobody ever noticed them. Obviously these were personal beliefs, but they were based on oral-tradition because at that time there were not as many translations, maybe? I remember when Gays could sit on Local-Spritual-Assemblies, and then the bombshells hit home. The faith slowly turned from the most beautiful ideology into a much more severe doctrine.
Whereas once mostly anybody could knock on a Bahai door and gain friendship and even entry, Bahai's were told that they had to register because some folks were gaining hospitality under false pretences....... the hardening of the Faith's heart. And more....... but this is intended as a factual objective report...... I will stop there.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
It's time to find out which laws you would dismiss, I think.
Please confirm clearly, simply, which of these OT laws you would disregard.
There are going to be a lot of these posts, I fear......
To love all human beings who are of the covenant (Lev. 19:18)
Not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger (Lev. 19:16)
Not to wrong any one in speech (Lev. 25:17)
Not to carry tales (Lev. 19:16)
Not to cherish hatred in one's heart (Lev. 19:17)
Not to take revenge (Lev. 19:18)
Not to bear a grudge (Lev. 19:18)
............. if you would uphold these laws, then clearly Bahauallah valued every one.
I uphold all of these, except perhaps for a touch of sarcasm at times
All Tumah is trying to explain to you DJ_sXe, as far as I understand, is that there are points upon which the Baha'i Faith contradicts Judaism. So as far as these points are concerned, the Baha'i Faith is a replacement of Judaism from a Baha'i perspective. For example, according to (Orthodox) Jewish Law, people who aren't of the Jewish nation are forbidden to have their own religions, but must simply follow the Noahide Laws alone. This is, if one accepts the validity of Judaism and Jewish Law, binding upon all non-Jews. So the Baha'i Faith contradicts Judaism in this regard by saying it is OK for a religion other than Judaism to exist in the world, meaning it does not accept Orthodox Judaism as a totally valid religion, but one that needs some of its facets replaced. That's it, really, he isn't launching any kind of attack or going into any great complexity (unusually, on the latter point!).
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Sarcasm? Oh you wicked wicked member! The sin of it all!
So you think their interpretation has led to an incorrect conclusion. IOW, you think they're wrong, just as I said.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Which of these laws could Bahauallah have forsaken?
Relieve a neighbor of burden and help to unload his beast (Ex.23:5)
To assist in replacing the load upon a neighbor's beast (Deut.22:4)
Not to leave a beast that has fallen down beneath its burden unaided (Deut. 22:4)
Not to afflict an orphan or a widow (Ex. 22:21)
Not to reap the entire field (Lev. 19:9; Lev. 23:22) (Please apply to modern businesses!)
leave unreaped corners of fields/orchards for the poor (Lev.19:9) (Please apply to modern businesses!)
Not to gather gleanings that have fallen while reaping (Lev. 19:9) (Please apply to modern businesses!)
To leave the gleanings for the poor (Lev. 19:9) (The retail trade deliberately destroys its gleanings!)
Not to gather ol'loth (imperfect clusters) of the vineyard (Lev.19:10) (Please apply to modern businesses!)
Leave ol'loth of the vineyard for the poor (Lev. 19:10; Deut. 24:21) (Another lesson for the retail trade!)
Not to gather single grapes that have fallen to ground (Lev.19:10)
To leave the single grapes of the vineyard for the poor (Lev. 19:10) (Another lesson for the retail trade!)
Not to return to take a forgotten sheaf (Deut. 24:19) (Please apply to modern businesses!)
The above applies to all fruit trees (Deut. 24:20)
To leave the forgotten sheaves for the poor (Deut. 24:19-20) (Please apply to modern businesses!)
Not to refrain from maintaining a poor man (Deut. 15:7)
To give charity according to one's means (Deut. 15:11) (So Charity is not about a gift.... it's a Commandment!)
To love the stranger (Deut. 10:19) (CCA61). (esp badgers! ;p)
Not to wrong the stranger in speech (Ex. 22:20)
Not to wrong the stranger in buying or selling (Ex. 22:20)
Relieve a neighbor of burden and help to unload his beast (Ex.23:5)
To assist in replacing the load upon a neighbor's beast (Deut.22:4)
Not to leave a beast that has fallen down beneath its burden unaided (Deut. 22:4)
Not to afflict an orphan or a widow (Ex. 22:21)
Not to reap the entire field (Lev. 19:9; Lev. 23:22) (Please apply to modern businesses!)
leave unreaped corners of fields/orchards for the poor (Lev.19:9) (Please apply to modern businesses!)
Not to gather gleanings that have fallen while reaping (Lev. 19:9) (Please apply to modern businesses!)
To leave the gleanings for the poor (Lev. 19:9) (The retail trade deliberately destroys its gleanings!)
Not to gather ol'loth (imperfect clusters) of the vineyard (Lev.19:10) (Please apply to modern businesses!)
Leave ol'loth of the vineyard for the poor (Lev. 19:10; Deut. 24:21) (Another lesson for the retail trade!)
Not to gather single grapes that have fallen to ground (Lev.19:10)
To leave the single grapes of the vineyard for the poor (Lev. 19:10) (Another lesson for the retail trade!)
Not to return to take a forgotten sheaf (Deut. 24:19) (Please apply to modern businesses!)
The above applies to all fruit trees (Deut. 24:20)
To leave the forgotten sheaves for the poor (Deut. 24:19-20) (Please apply to modern businesses!)
Not to refrain from maintaining a poor man (Deut. 15:7)
To give charity according to one's means (Deut. 15:11) (So Charity is not about a gift.... it's a Commandment!)
To love the stranger (Deut. 10:19) (CCA61). (esp badgers! ;p)
Not to wrong the stranger in speech (Ex. 22:20)
Not to wrong the stranger in buying or selling (Ex. 22:20)
Again, it's referring to the creation of a seperate ‘Noahide’ religion, not already existing religions. Historically, (again) Islam and Christianity were widely considered as fulfiffing the Noahide Laws. This is so in the modern day. Other religions can be considered Noahide.
Again, a Jewish person (or really, anyone) does not have to become a Bahá’í. You can, but if you choose, you can follow Judaism. It's cool. Whatever.
Again, history dude...Christianity and Islam were and are considered as fulfilling the requirements of the Noahide Laws. They are fine. You don't agree? Fine, but the facts of history, the facts of the modern day still remain. Other religions can be considered acceptable for Non-Jews, as long as they fulfill the requirements of the Laws. Which....they....can, and are widely thought to. We will agree to disagree on this matter.
Dude, Tumah, I'm enjoying your ignorance of history. It's laughable. Judaism, replaced by the Bahá’í Faith? You're waaaaaay too late. Christianity (which is considered as fulfilling the requirements of the Noahide Laws) already did this....a looooong time ago. Again, you're very late.
Basically, I'm just going to be blunt with you. You may be greatly knowledgeable concerning Jewish law, but when it comes to history and the modern day, you display some ignorance. You cling ardently to your opinions, even though historical facts as well as modern example have shown you to be wrong. Still, you refuse to acknowledge it. You are stubborn, but I'll leave you to that. I have no more patience for it. You're free to your opinions. Be well.
You, ob, I'm going to ignore....
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Some more OT Laws!
NB: The one about keeping Canaanite slaves forever is the 613th one which Tumah made a fuss about....!
Which of these would Bahauallah have forsaken?
To lend to a poor person (Ex. 22:24)
Not to demand repayment of debt from a poor man, when he cannot pay. (Ex.22:24)
Not to take in pledge utensils used in preparing food (Deut.24:6)
Not to exact a pledge from a debtor by force (Deut. 24:10)
Not to keep the pledge from its owner at the time when he needs it (Deut. 24:12)
To return a pledge to its owner (Deut. 24:13)
Not to take a pledge from a widow (Deut. 24:17)
Not to commit fraud in measuring (Lev. 19:35)
To ensure that scales and weights are correct (Lev. 19:36)
Not to possess inaccurate measures and weights (Deut.25:13-14)
Not to delay payment of a hired man's wages (Lev. 19:13)
That the hired laborer shall be permitted to eat of the produce he is reaping (Deut. 23:25-26)
That the hired laborer shall not take more than he can eat (Deut.23:25)
That a hired laborer shall not eat produce that is not being harvested (Deut. 23:26)
To pay wages to the hired man at the due time (Deut. 24:15)
To deal judicially with the Hebrew bondman in accordance with the
laws appertaining to him (Ex. 21:2-6) (for bondman read 'contracted person')
Not to compel the Hebrew servant to do the work of a slave (Lev.25:39)
Not to sell a Hebrew servant as a slave (Lev. 25:42)
Not to treat a Hebrew servant rigorously (Lev. 25:43)
Not to permit a gentile to treat harshly a Hebrew bondman sold to him (Lev. 25:53)
Not to send away a Hebrew bondman servant empty handed, when he is freed from service (Deut. 15:13)
To bestow liberal gifts upon the Hebrew bondsman (at the end of his term of service), and the same should be done to a Hebrew bondwoman (Deut. 15:14)
To redeem a Hebrew maid-servant (Ex. 21:8)
Not to sell a Hebrew maid-servant to another person (Ex. 21:8)
To espouse a Hebrew maid-servant (Ex. 21:8-9)
To keep the Canaanite slave forever (Lev. 25:46)
NB: The one about keeping Canaanite slaves forever is the 613th one which Tumah made a fuss about....!
Which of these would Bahauallah have forsaken?
To lend to a poor person (Ex. 22:24)
Not to demand repayment of debt from a poor man, when he cannot pay. (Ex.22:24)
Not to take in pledge utensils used in preparing food (Deut.24:6)
Not to exact a pledge from a debtor by force (Deut. 24:10)
Not to keep the pledge from its owner at the time when he needs it (Deut. 24:12)
To return a pledge to its owner (Deut. 24:13)
Not to take a pledge from a widow (Deut. 24:17)
Not to commit fraud in measuring (Lev. 19:35)
To ensure that scales and weights are correct (Lev. 19:36)
Not to possess inaccurate measures and weights (Deut.25:13-14)
Not to delay payment of a hired man's wages (Lev. 19:13)
That the hired laborer shall be permitted to eat of the produce he is reaping (Deut. 23:25-26)
That the hired laborer shall not take more than he can eat (Deut.23:25)
That a hired laborer shall not eat produce that is not being harvested (Deut. 23:26)
To pay wages to the hired man at the due time (Deut. 24:15)
To deal judicially with the Hebrew bondman in accordance with the
laws appertaining to him (Ex. 21:2-6) (for bondman read 'contracted person')
Not to compel the Hebrew servant to do the work of a slave (Lev.25:39)
Not to sell a Hebrew servant as a slave (Lev. 25:42)
Not to treat a Hebrew servant rigorously (Lev. 25:43)
Not to permit a gentile to treat harshly a Hebrew bondman sold to him (Lev. 25:53)
Not to send away a Hebrew bondman servant empty handed, when he is freed from service (Deut. 15:13)
To bestow liberal gifts upon the Hebrew bondsman (at the end of his term of service), and the same should be done to a Hebrew bondwoman (Deut. 15:14)
To redeem a Hebrew maid-servant (Ex. 21:8)
Not to sell a Hebrew maid-servant to another person (Ex. 21:8)
To espouse a Hebrew maid-servant (Ex. 21:8-9)
To keep the Canaanite slave forever (Lev. 25:46)
No. Their conclusions, as Muslims, are theirs. We disagree, yes, but we won't fight them on it. Unfortunately, I cannot say the same the other way around.