Religious Nationalism in the US

[Polymath257]

You have a longstanding grudge against Christians which always barges in on these forums. The claim that somehow its Christians who cant be trusted while the secularists are beyond reproach is proof of what I've been saying.

The Christians arguing for Christian Nationalism can't be trusted.

There are other Christians that can. There are, in fact, many Christians on the left that take seriously the commands to help the poor and downtrodden and feel the need to work for justice and peace.

The religious Right is not the only form of Christianity, let alone the only form of theism.

 

[Kenny]

It's not an actual university. It has no academic accreditation.

"Prager University is not an accredited academic institution and does not offer certifications or diplomas." From it's own website

About Us | PragerU

In other words, it's only as credible as the next Joe Smoke with any opinion.

It's also why they, legally, have to use PragerU while giving public presentation. Otherwise, it's usually just more clickbait.

Thank you... I stand corrected! But the quotes are still valid.

 

[Augustus]

And those that had somewhat of a boot in each camp, still Christians but with a somewhat more material view of the value Christianity had, like John Adams and James Monroe.

Discussions about 'how Christian the Founders were' often comes down to how you view this last group, since they were (at least) nominally Christian, but they often separated the wisdom of Jesus, the importance of religious community in social terms, and the various miracles and supernatural claims of the Bible.

That last group is pretty broad if you compared Washington to Franklin, for example.

This is a useful point to remember as it creates a lot of eye of the beholder potential for the debate.

One issue with the group you describe is the concept of deism. Enlightenment era deists were mostly (although not uniformly) providential deists which is a bit different from the modern concept of deism.

A benevolent God created us with reason, wills human flourishing and has given us the tools to achieve this: the essential benevolence of creation can be decoded using reason. So for example Adam Smith considers the efficacy invisible hand of the market to be a function of Divine providence

This view developed out of Christianity and the idea we could return to a true 'natural religion' that is innate to us, as we transcended the need for revealed religion.

As the FF were mostly educated anglo-protestants, they subscribed to a whiggish view of historical progress, where basically the direction of history is for people to become more like them as they shed their superstitions and ignorance.

Where they stop on this process reflects the issue you describe: mainstream protestantism, providential deism or further towards atheism. It often didn't make a great deal of functional difference either.

Which gets to the problem with "Was America founded as a Christian nation?" because it is true to say both that it was and that it wasn't, or at least there is enough there for both sides to make a reasonable case in support of their position.

It was certainly founded on principles that emerged from the Christian tradition, although for numerous FFs these may have been understood as simply being universal truths. It wasn't founded as a religiously Christian nation though.

Many of the FFs were basically the Secular Humanists of the day: cultural Christians (well cultural anglo-Protestants) without the religious faith in Christianity. The benevolent god disappeared, but not the faith in the essential goodness of humans, and the explicit belief in Providence faded away over time, but is still just as powerful in contemporary Humanism rebranded as 'science and reason'.

 

[Jimmy]

Never been a Christian nation? There's over 200 million of us.

 

[Twilight Hue]

So, forget the quotes because you have something against a university?

As others had stated, it's not a university.

There's no accreditation or degree programs whatsoever.

It is however classified as a non profit organization.

 

[Kenny]

As others had stated, it's not a university.

There's no accreditation or degree programs whatsoever.

It is however classified as a non profit organization.

Which I received the correction... but... .the quotes were still valid. real and historical

 

[Valjean]

You would have to support that revisionist history statement.

Just look at their history. The Plymouth colony was a Calvinist

Its evolution. We are naturally evolved territorial primates.

Yet, historically, nation-states and patriotic awareness are new things. Allegiances used to be more regional, or religious.

 

[Valjean]

I support Christian nationalism, because I think it is better than the other options.

How are you conceiving Christian Nationalism?
Nationalism is one step removed from Fascism. Religious nationalism is the current system in Iran, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia.
America is supposed to be a land of liberty and justice for all. Why would we choose a repressive, intolerant, authoritarian system?

https://bjconline.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/WhatIsChristianNationalism.pdf

 

[sun rise]

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” Also in the Declaration of independence: “the laws of nature and of nature’s God” and it closes by “appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world” and noting the signers’ “reliance on the protection of divine Providence.”

These are Christian references

Which chapter and verse of the Bible are you specifically thinking about? Vague assertions carry little weight.

 

[sun rise]

Catching up on this thread, there's a few things that occurred to me:

Someone calling him- or herself a Christian does not mean the person really is one based on what the Bible says. This applies to religions in general.

A vanishing small number of people actually fully live a life of love. For most a hint of love might exist but mostly people act in self-interest. The historical atrocities committed by such people has been noted in this thread.

Most, myself included, often operate on confirmation bias, searching for and finding that which supports our ideas while ignoring contradictory bits.

If we did a DNA analysis of America, we'd find a number of "genes" that are clearly Christian in origin. We'd find others that are common in history including Native American and pre-Christian Europe. This common DNA would include concepts that include Hinduism, Native Americans, Islam, Judaism and Buddhism as well as others.

 

[1213]

How are you conceiving Christian Nationalism?
Nationalism is one step removed from Fascism. Religious nationalism is the current system in Iran, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia.
America is supposed to be a land of liberty and justice for all. Why would we choose a repressive, intolerant, authoritarian system?

https://bjconline.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/WhatIsChristianNationalism.pdf

Without nationalism, we would not have any nations. Do you think USA should be abolished, or Afghanistan, or any other nation? I think it is repressive, intolerant and authoritarian to force everyone to be the same, that is why I think nationalism is good. Obviously I would not want to be part of all possible nations, but I think people should have right to have roots, heritage, history and way of their own, which I think nationality and nationalism is essentially. I think it is very important also for liberty to have many different nations, because it gives opportunity for choice and protects people from oppression that will come with one world government without nations. Nationalism protects people's way of life, which is why I think it is good.

Every human is one step a way from fascism. All people can be fascistic, even if not nationalists. Today biggest fascists seem to be the "antifa" people. Nationalism is no more fascistic than any other idea. But, nationalism and any other idea can be used for fascistic purposes.

"America is supposed to be a land of liberty and justice for all". I think that is American nationalism. And I think it is based on Christian principles and worked well, when majority of the people were Christian. Now America doesn't seem to have liberty nor justice and I think it is because people are not anymore Christian.

I don't think people should be forced to accept everything, which seems to be the opposite of "Christian nationalism". People should have right to be intolerant. If people are forced to tolerate everything, it is authoritarianism and repressive.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Able to and prone to are two different things.

Religious types are prone to quote from the bible even when it is inappropriate.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Very common but wrong perspective. You take the exception and make it general.

This might help:
Were the Founders Religious? | PragerU

I am not sure that is a balanced view. Franklin was certainly a Unitarian. They do not believe in the deity of Jesus. But do use the bible. They are rejected by most other Christians.

 

[Revoltingest]

Never been a Christian nation? There's over 200 million of us.

There are another 100+ million non-Christians.
Question...
If we were really a Christian country, what would
we expect these things to look like...
- Foreign policies
- Prison system
- Policing
- Social services
- Taxation
- Behavior of leaders
- Behavior of the populace.

 

[Jimmy]

There are another 100+ million non-Christians.
Question...
If we were really a Christian country, what would
we expect these things to look like...
- Foreign policies
- Prison system
- Policing
- Social services
- Taxation
- Behavior of leaders
- Behavior of the populace.

What they are now

 

[Revoltingest]

What they are now

I'm not in a good position to answer,
since I'm not a Christian. I was curious
what Christians thought of such things.
(The questions weren't rhetorical.)

 

[Sand Dancer]

Totally missed the point.
They were Christians, quoting scripture from the Christian Bible.
They had Christian principles which they based their ideas for government on.

Weird how they didn't mention Jesus or the Bible in the documents. They learned from the Enlightenment values. They knew better than to repeat what England did.

 

[Sand Dancer]

No doubt... but George Washington wasn't a politician. He even said "no" to a third term.

At least we had one decent politician.

 

[Kenny]

At least we had one decent politician.

few and far between!

 

[Kenny]

I am not sure that is a balanced view. Franklin was certainly a Unitarian. They do not believe in the deity of Jesus. But do use the bible. They are rejected by most other Christians.

i'm trying to find a chart of which faith the founding fathers were part of. I have been searching for some time but i haven't hit the right words to activate the algorithms to give me what I want.