So... you didn't look up one?
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Religious Nationalism in the US
- Thread starter The Hammer
- Start date
How many quotes do you want?
Because they were in the know?????? Or were you there when they wrote and it and prayed before they started?So what? They weren't official proclamations.
All men were created equal is antithetical to judeo-christian scripture? I'm not sure I understand.
Viker
Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
Kentucky's Constitution
Interesting excerpt from my state constitution:
Section 5 Right of religious freedom.
No preference shall ever be given by law to any religious sect, society or
denomination; nor to any particular creed, mode of worship or system of ecclesiastical
polity; nor shall any person be compelled to attend any place of worship, to contribute to
the erection or maintenance of any such place, or to the salary or support of any minister
of religion; nor shall any man be compelled to send his child to any school to which he
may be conscientiously opposed; and the civil rights, privileges or capacities of no person
shall be taken away, or in anywise diminished or enlarged, on account of his belief or
disbelief of any religious tenet, dogma or teaching. No human authority shall, in any case
whatever, control or interfere with the rights of conscience.
Text as Ratified on: August 3, 1891, and revised
September 28, 1891.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Quote all you want, your god is totally absent from the Declaration and Constitution with others affirming that Christianity doesn't run the show.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
People aren't equal. Such as, women being equal to men or above men is forbidden.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
You mean there's no mention of killing everyone who knows Jehovah but goes to worship another god? I thought this was Biblical values that thing is based on.
Viker
Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
That appears to be the misconception. But in reviewing my state's constitution, one of the first/earliest states, I just can't find anything inherently Biblical, Christian or pro-religious.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
What's the point if you can't go slaughter everyone in your rival town?
Viker
Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
I suppose that's okay if they're indigenous or dark complected, yanno like the good ole days.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Didn't stop the English from going after their "white monkey" Celtic neighbors.I suppose that's okay if they're indigenous or dark complected, yanno like the good ole days.
So, yeah, it's not like we're asking to dash their little ones against the rocks, or have kids killed for calling a prophet baldy, not even to open a can of whoop *** in the temple. The request is nothing more than the time honored tradition of killing the apostates, and a whole town of them might make a dent in venting my negative emotions.
vulcanlogician
Well-Known Member
I think "plagiarized" is too strong a word. It's fine for philosophers' ideas to be plagiarized. Jefferson loved Locke's ideas, and his contemporaries knew that Jefferson was often invoking Locke in his speeches and in the Declaration of Independence.
It would kinda be like me making a post here on RF that started with "To be or not to be. That is the question." Even if I don't credit Shakespeare when I say that, it's hardly plagiarism. Everyone knew where I got the quote, and no one is going to accuse me of passing it off as my own.
The enlightenment philosophy (from which liberalism sprang) was just as concerned with tearing down old Christian dogmas as it was formed from a backdrop of Christendom.
I think any modern Christian should take a long look at Locke's theories on separation of church and state. Locke didn't just see the state being corrupted by Christianity's influence.
LOCKE SAW CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM AS A THREAT TO CHRISTIANITY ITSELF.
As in, the more nationalistic that Christianity becomes, the more it betrays Jesus Christ and what he stood for.
I'm not saying Locke was right or wrong here, but anyone who defends Christian nationalism ought to take a good hard look at Locke's arguments.
Augustus
…
I think it significantly oversells his views to see him as an atheist:
. . . The Divine Law, whereby I mean, that Law which God has set to the actions of Men, whether promulgated to them by the light of Nature, or the voice of Revelation. That God has given a Rule whereby Men should govern themselves, I think there is no body so brutish as to deny.15 He has a Right to do it, we are his Creatures: He has Goodness and Wisdom to direct our Actions to that which is best: and he has Power to enforce it by Rewards and Punishments, of infinite weight and duration, in another Life: for no body can take us out of his hands. This is the only true touchstone of moral Rectitude; and by comparing them to this Law, it is, that Men judge of the most considerable Moral Good or Evil of their Actions; that is, whether as Duties, or Sins, they are like to procure them happiness, or misery, from the hands of the ALMIGHTY.16
Footnote: 16 Essay, II.xviii.8 (352); it should be noted that the first sentence of this text equates the law of nature discoverable by reason with the divine law revealed to Moses and enjoined by Jesus the Messiah.
Victor Nuovo - John Locke: The Philosopher as Christian Virtuoso
Around this time there was minimal difference between liberal Christians, Providential deists and any Enlightenment liberals who may have been of a more atheistic persuasion.
There had been a trend towards looking for a 'natural religion', which became equated with order and the human capacity for reason and benevolence.
Some situated this within Christianity, others as a result of a Deistic Providence and others within a natural benevolence (akin to modern Secular humanists). They all believed pretty much the same thing, although some didn't accept the atheistic premise that humans were naturally benevolent without the underpinnings of a Providential God, and some didn't accept it without the additional reward/punishment of belief in heaven/hell
This was formulated by Tindal in his Christianity as Old as the Creation, a title which itself reflects the third facet of Deism, the appeal to an original natural religion. For Tindal, God’s purposes for us are confined to the encompassing of “the common Interest, and mutual Happiness of his rational Creatures.”
Now Tindal was an extreme case, and not many agreed with his book when it came out in the early eighteenth century. Tindal went all the way, while I am talking about a trend here. But Tindal was far from alone in giving voice to this trend. There were the Huguenot exiles in Holland, Jean Leclerc and Jacques Bernard; somewhat later in France, the Abbé de Saint-Pierre adopted the position that the practice of virtue was the only form of cult worthy of God. The goals of religion and politics are the same, “l’observation de la justice et la pratique de la bienfaisance.” The Abbé, whose outlook was immensely influential, coined this term “bienfaisance”, which became a key notion of the Enlightenment. His favourite appellations for God were indeed “l’Être souverainement bienfaisant” and “l’Être infiniment bienfaisant”...
What is significant is that the plea for a holy life came to be reductively seen as a call to centre on morality, and morality in turn as a matter of conduct.
... [religion] is less and less concerned with sin as a condition we need to be rescued from through some transformation of our being, and more and more with sin as wrong behaviour which we can be persuaded, trained or disciplined to turn our backs on. This concern with a morality of correct conduct has been observed by many historians of the period. Religion is narrowed to moralism.
A Secular Age - Charles Taylor
My view is that it is somewhat of the middle ground: the US is a nation of the Christian tradition, but is not a religiously, and especially not a scripturally, Christian nation
Viker
Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
From a book full of Kings and where women are half the cost of men, no. Only when it comes to sin, such as in "all have fallen short". There's hardly any reference to egalitarianism in scripture. If I am missing such, please feel free to correct me.
vulcanlogician
Well-Known Member
Yeah. If I had to put money on it, I would say that Locke was probably a convinced Christian. (Maybe some kind of deist. We'll never really know. All we can do is guess.) "Locke was Christian," is my guess.
But I also think Locke was more sympathetic toward and tolerant of atheist viewpoints being expressed than he pretended to be. I think his wanting to exclude atheists and atheistic ideas from public influence was put in there so that he wasn't seen as "soft on atheism."
If Locke was seen as sympathetic to atheism in his writings, they would have been banned across Europe... just like Spinoza's were. It's not beyond the pale to wonder if Locke massaged his ideas about religion so that he could pass them under the censors' noses.
vulcanlogician
Well-Known Member
I think there is like 99% overlap between Christian and secular values.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
I don't recall any scripture that advocates freedom or social equality. The bible is misogynistic, homophobic, pro-slavery... very oppressive and autocratic.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Well, there is that pesky establishment clause of the first amendment.
This is separation of Church and State??? I don't think so...Aside from the references to "God" and "Supreme Being," what are you referring to?
God or the divine is referenced in every state constitution
God or the divine is mentioned at least once in each of the 50 state constitutions and nearly 200 times overall.www.pewresearch.org
It seems to me that despite references to "God," states also generally separate Church from state (sometimes with more vigor than the Federal government):
State Constitutional Provisions on Religion
Religious liberty advocates have observed that state constitutions may provide more separation of church and state than is protected in the First Amendment.www.mtsu.edu
Pennsylvania: And each member, before he takes his seat, shall make and subscribe the following declaration, viz.
I do believe in one God, the Creator and governor of the universe, the rewarder of the good and the punisher of the wicked. And I do acknowledge the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by Divine inspiration.
1[Preamble] WE THE PEOPLE of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our Freedom, in order to secure its blessings, DO ESTABLISH THIS CONSTITUTION.