Religious versus Secular Ethics

[Siegfried]

What is the origin of ethical (moral) principles of human behavior. Many theists believe that religion provides the sole source of ethical principles. They say that one cannot have morals without religion. Secular humanists and others believe that ethical principles can be derived from reason, empiricism, and even evolution -- that religion is not required for developing sets of moral rules.

1) What do you think about this issue?

2) If God were shown not to exist (hypothetically!) would theists change their moral behavior. If so, in what ways?

 

[Man of Faith]

I believe that ethics and morals are ingrained into us from creator God, not religion. The atheist has no foundation for ethics and morals which is why most are for sex of any kind, as long as it is consensual of course, they don't consider life sacred from conception, and they have no reason to uphold one man and one woman marriage. If we truly lived in a Darwinist society it would be pretty scary indeed so most atheists accept that morals are good even though their worldview doesn't have a foundation for them.

 

[Amill]

If we truly lived in a Darwinist society it would be pretty scary indeed so most atheists accept that morals are good even though their worldview doesn't have a foundation for them.

The foundation for my morals is the same as the foundation of my worldview. Experiences.

 

[Man of Faith]

The foundation for my morals is the same as the foundation of my worldview. Experiences.

I see, so if you were born in China where Christians are jailed and killed that would be your morals. Nice. As a Christian I have Judeo/Christian values that are universal, not based on experience.

 

[Tristesse]

I believe that ethics and morals are ingrained into us from creator God, not religion. The atheist has no foundation for ethics and morals which is why most are for sex of any kind, as long as it is consensual of course, they don't consider life sacred from conception, and they have no reason to uphold one man and one woman marriage. If we truly lived in a Darwinist society it would be pretty scary indeed so most atheists accept that morals are good even though their worldview doesn't have a foundation for them.

Wow! so many flaws in what you've just stated. First, I'm an atheist and I have a foundation for my morals, and they're not hoisted on me by fiat of some creator. Second, what business is it of yours what consenting adults do in the privacy of their bedroom room?

 

[Tristesse]

I see, so if you were born in China where Christians are jailed and killed that would be your morals. Nice. As a Christian I have Judeo/Christian values that are universal, not based on experience.

How did you reach that as a conclusion to what he just said?

 

[Man of Faith]

How did you reach that as a conclusion to what he just said?

Maybe you haven't noticed but I am a brilliant deductionist.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I'm just thankful we have religion to keep all the people in line who need it to act morally. Can you imagine how frightening the world would be if there was no religion? All the people who act morally only because of religion would suddenly be running around murdering, raping, and coveting their neighbor's ***.

This is why I'm not anti-religion. We need something to keep all the simpletons in line and acting like human beings. If the bible is the only thing keeping them from acting like savages, I'm glad we have it.

 

[Revoltingest]

Morals....I have'm as a result of genetics, culture & experience.
That would explain the diversity of morals far better than divine origin...unless there are a whole lotta different gods.

 

[Willamena]

Maybe you haven't noticed but I am a brilliant deductionist.

Or, unique.

 

[Tristesse]

Maybe you haven't noticed but I am a brilliant deductionist.

I hadn't noticed. You seem to be brilliant at avoiding questions, though.

 

[Amill]

I see, so if you were born in China where Christians are jailed and killed that would be your morals. Nice. As a Christian I have Judeo/Christian values that are universal, not based on experience.

Obviously not all atheist Chinese believe in jailing and killing christians lol... So I don't really understand your point(if there even is one, it's like me saying you're morals must be similar to members of the KKK.)

I was just trying to say that the experiences I've had throughout life have shaped my feelings and opinions. I base my actions and morality off those feelings and opinions.

 

[Tathagata]

Obviously not all atheist Chinese believe in jailing and killing christians lol... So I don't really understand your point(if there even is one, it's like me saying you're morals must be similar to members of the KKK.)

I was just trying to say that the experiences I've had throughout life have shaped my feelings and opinions. I base my actions and morality off those feelings and opinions.

This is exactly what Man of Faith was criticizing. He made a valid point, but everyone just dismissed and seemed to misunderstand it.

Man of Faith was arguing that, if your morality is shaped by your experiences (which you have just admitted), then what if you grew up in a place where you experienced sadistic and cruel ethics like Nazi Germany? Then your experiences in Nazi Germany would shape your ethics. Surely your experience based ethics are incredibly flawed and at the very least, are undesirable.


.

 

[Gloone]

What is the origin of ethical (moral) principles of human behavior. Many theists believe that religion provides the sole source of ethical principles. They say that one cannot have morals without religion. Secular humanists and others believe that ethical principles can be derived from reason, empiricism, and even evolution -- that religion is not required for developing sets of moral rules.

1) What do you think about this issue?

2) If God were shown not to exist (hypothetically!) would theists change their moral behavior. If so, in what ways?

Why do ethics have to be secular? Not all people are created equal. Not everyone is born with blond hair. Some people are born to hate and others are born to love. What is this secular ethics you are talking.

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

What is the origin of ethical (moral) principles of human behavior. Many theists believe that religion provides the sole source of ethical principles. They say that one cannot have morals without religion. Secular humanists and others believe that ethical principles can be derived from reason, empiricism, and even evolution -- that religion is not required for developing sets of moral rules.

1) What do you think about this issue?

2) If God were shown not to exist (hypothetically!) would theists change their moral behavior. If so, in what ways?

the codification of many moral practices among human groups has been done by the church. the church has been a staple of many societies and a religious gathering has been the center of a lot of social behavior. societies codify right/wrong behavior all the time, and if the strongest social arm in a community is a church then that will be where the codification takes place.
the propensity for morality obviously out-dates the church, considering even the most rudimentary of family groups would have fallen apart long before any societal progress could be made without it. so this process of combining a propensity (recognition of incentive) for morality with the process of codification (training) had to have taken place AT LEAST before there were any 'holy documents' or even oral tradition (considering language is a product of group-forming) to set up any kind of religious influence.

i think if it were proven that there was no such thing as god it would change very little, it probably wouldn't even effect church attendance. but if everyone were to sincerely believe that there was no god, then you'd perhaps see a sudden, slight, spike in certain behaviors that were unduly repressed by religious doctrine (which for most of us wouldn't even be immoral). but overall, and over time, everyone would realize that we didn't need a babysitter, and that we are pretty good at doing this on our own.

 

[Amill]

This is exactly what Man of Faith was criticizing. He made a valid point, but everyone just dismissed and seemed to misunderstand it.

Man of Faith was arguing that, if your morality is shaped by your experiences (which you have just admitted), then what if you grew up in a place where you experienced sadistic and cruel ethics like Nazi Germany? Then your experiences in Nazi Germany would shape your ethics. Surely your experience based ethics are incredibly flawed and at the very least, are undesirable.


.

Well sure, if I felt that what the Nazis were doing was "right", then I'd agree with what they'd be doing. But at the same time if my family taught or showed me qualities such as empathy, equality, fairness, then maybe I wouldn't? Like I said about the Chinese, it's not as if everyone in Nazi Germany agreed with what the regime was doing.

Who cares if other people find my ethics undesirable. Everyone's ethics are undesirable to somebody(probably lots of people). And it's not as if I have a choice in the matter. I don't even think the way my opinions and feelings are formed is any different than a religious man. Their experiences may tell them that the bible's teachings are true and that the morality found within is the right way to do things just as I may listen to family, friends, and strangers who's words might influence my feelings and opinions as well.

All I know is that certain actions make me feel bad and certain actions make me feel good. It usually has to do with physical and mental pain or pleasure. I naturally take those feelings into account when I'm weighing out the consequences of any future actions. Not much different than theists. Some theists may differ in the fact that they may get a sense of guilt or pride(when they think they're ******* off god or when they think they're making him happy.)

 

[Penumbra]

What is the origin of ethical (moral) principles of human behavior. Many theists believe that religion provides the sole source of ethical principles. They say that one cannot have morals without religion. Secular humanists and others believe that ethical principles can be derived from reason, empiricism, and even evolution -- that religion is not required for developing sets of moral rules.

1) What do you think about this issue?

Religion is an aspect of culture, and morality comes from a variety of sources. Instincts, reason, habits, etc.

2) If God were shown not to exist (hypothetically!) would theists change their moral behavior. If so, in what ways?

People seem to make gods in their own images anyway, so I doubt much would change. I guess it would affect a certain percentage of the population.

Transitioning from a theist to an atheist never really changed my morality.

 

[ellenjanuary]

Secular. Religion seems to only provide for criticism of other's morals.

 

[Jeremiah]

This is exactly what Man of Faith was criticizing. He made a valid point, but everyone just dismissed and seemed to misunderstand it.

Man of Faith was arguing that, if your morality is shaped by your experiences (which you have just admitted), then what if you grew up in a place where you experienced sadistic and cruel ethics like Nazi Germany? Then your experiences in Nazi Germany would shape your ethics. Surely your experience based ethics are incredibly flawed and at the very least, are undesirable.


.

And in this aspect how is "experience based ethics" different from religious ethics?

 

[gnomon]

What is the origin of ethical (moral) principles of human behavior. Many theists believe that religion provides the sole source of ethical principles. They say that one cannot have morals without religion. Secular humanists and others believe that ethical principles can be derived from reason, empiricism, and even evolution -- that religion is not required for developing sets of moral rules.

1) What do you think about this issue?

2) If God were shown not to exist (hypothetically!) would theists change their moral behavior. If so, in what ways?

1) The foundation of moral definitions is two people in close proximity.

2) No. Theists rely on faith. You cannot show that a being which exists outside of all material definitions exists or not.

I see, so if you were born in China where Christians are jailed and killed that would be your morals. Nice. As a Christian I have Judeo/Christian values that are universal, not based on experience.

China has freedom of religion. Many people miss this but the notion of atheist states such as the Soviet Union and China are largely wrong. The Soviet Union had a short lived experience with enforcing atheism, the people largely remained religious (including party members) and the Orthodox Church in Russia was given dominance over others. China actually went further with their social revolution but they never changed the religious beliefs of the people. This is noted by China recognizing religious freedom. It may be a limited freedom but China does not enforce atheism. The conflict between both nations and religion was not one of atheism v. religion. It was one of State v. religion. Failure to understand that distinction is an educational failure.