Religious vs. Nonreligious - Who is More Trustworthy?

[ecco]

Who are these "them"? Do you have any evidence that any of "them" have actually gone on widespread rampages?

Several years ago there was a huge swath of nativity vandalisms that covered more than a 40 mile area (this was only the part that I travelled through) that took place on Christmas Eve quite a few years ago.

I ask for evidence, you provide hearsay anecdotes. Not very convincing.



ecco previously:

Who are these "fundamentalists"? Do you have any evidence that any of "them" have made strategies to force churches to close down?​

I was part of a rationalist forum where these things were openly discussed. It had a deep cleansing and went underground not long after the schism triggered by "elevatorgate." (I wasn't let back in.)

What does that have to do with atheist fundamentalists making strategies to force churches to close down?



You made of couple of serious accusations against atheists without providing any supporting evidence. When asked for evidence to support your allegations, you made irrelevant comments.

Are you going to provide something to support your allegations or are you going to withdraw them?

 

[crossfire]

Who are these "them"? Do you have any evidence that any of "them" have actually gone on widespread rampages?



I ask for evidence, you provide hearsay anecdotes. Not very convincing.



ecco previously:

Who are these "fundamentalists"? Do you have any evidence that any of "them" have made strategies to force churches to close down?​

What does that have to do with atheist fundamentalists making strategies to force churches to close down?

Actually, it's not broadbrushing atheists in any manner. It is a specific example of atheist fundamentalism that I have witnessed myself. (Emphasis on fundamentalists, and the destructive behavior often engaged by fundies.)
Now, if you don't want to believe me, that is entirely up to you.

You made of couple of serious accusations against atheists without providing any supporting evidence. When asked for evidence to support your allegations, you made irrelevant comments.

Are you going to provide something to support your allegations or are you going to withdraw them?

This thread is specifically about subjective opinion, and therefore my comments are not irrelevant. My comments are based upon personal experience, which cannot be unexperienced. (Brainwashing is a sign of fundamentalism, just sayin')

 

[ecco]

Generally speaking, religious people are more optimistic than non-religious.

You can, of course, provide evidence for that comment, can't you?

Atheists tend to be slightly depressive (at least in comparison) and more than a bit fatalistic, bordering on Calvinism.

You can, of course, provide evidence for that comment, can't you?

because nonreligious types also occasionally buy into psychics ... They are far more likely to believe things are out of control in terms of population or the climate.

Belief in physics: I'm guilty.

Do people who are Followers (and Writers) of the Mune Shinri not believe in physics?
Do people who are Followers (and Writers) of the Mune Shinri dispute the findings of physics?

Do people who are Followers (and Writers) of the Mune Shinri not believe in man's contribution to overpopulation?

Do people who are Followers (and Writers) of the Mune Shinri not believe in man's contribution to AGW Climate Change?

For the most part, both sides are very much human (one of the most irritating behaviors atheists exhibit is holding Christians to an impossible standard.

Which atheists are holding Christians to an impossible standard? What impossible standards are these atheists holding Christians to?

Think of the implications of seeing just problems without that sense of hope. You get worked into a paranoia that is not healthy.

Which atheists look at problems without a sense of hope. When you say "sense of hope" are you referring to the sense of hope Christians get by praying to an invisible man in the sky?

Name some atheists who you believe have been worked into a paranoia that is not healthy.

How example, if we accept overpopulation, how hard is it to push people into an idea that undesirables need to be cleansed?

I can think of a few instances of cleansing undesirables.

Christian Hitler and Christian Germans eliminating Jews.
Sunnis exterminating Shiites
Shiites exterminating Sunnis.
Religious factions killing each other in Bosnia in the 1990's

I grew up Christian, but ultimately, I believe Christianity should be tempered with Taoism. What is needed in this world is a sense of balance.

Ultimately, I believe religion needs to be tempered with rationality. What is really needed in this world is an acknowledgment of the silliness and the evils of religions.

 

[Rival]

Ultimately, I believe religion needs to be tempered with rationality.

Ultimately, I believe religion is no more irrational than irreligion and we need to do away with this idea so prevalent in nonreligious circles that the irreligious have some sort of monopoly on rationality. I wish people would stop making this absurd claim.

 

[ecco]

The zealots, the hard right or anti-religious. Their belief, religious and atheist, is so strong they deny facts and only follow others like themselves. They seek only information that confirms their ideal and refute or ignore all other information. They will even complain about the moderates in their own cause. They will label other groups as opposition. Both groups have them and they are untrustworthy because they lie to themselves first and foremost.

Which anti-religious zealots are you referring to?
What beliefs do the atheists hold so strongly that they deny facts?
What facts do these atheists deny?
About what do these atheists lie to themselves first and foremost that makes them untrustworthy?

 

[ecco]

It is especially risky when a person mentions their religion in the course of doing business. It's a red flag for me.

Indeed. If I see a commercial van that sports "Truckin' for Jesus", they automatically go on my "do not call" list.

 

[ecco]

Ultimately, I believe religion is no more irrational than irreligion and we need to do away with this idea so prevalent in nonreligious circles that the irreligious have some sort of monopoly on rationality. I wish people would stop making this absurd claim.

Beliefs in magic men in the skies are no more rational than beliefs in fairies or hobgoblins.

Do you believe in fairies or hobgoblins. If someone told you that they actually believed in the reality of fairies or hobgoblins, would you consider them to be rational?

 

[Rival]

Beliefs in magic men in the skies

This is a ridiculous caricature.

Do you believe in fairies or hobgoblins. If someone told you that they actually believed in the reality of fairies or hobgoblins, would you consider them to be rational?

I'd ask them why and what they consider a fairy or hobgoblin.

 

[ecco]

The religious beliefs of the counselor should have no bearing on the counsel given to the client. That is irresponsible.

Are you including counselors that advise clients to get Gay Conversion Therapy?

 

[ecco]

Beliefs in magic men in the skies are no more rational than beliefs in fairies or hobgoblins.

This is a ridiculous caricature.

Now you need to explain why you think beliefs in fairies or hobgoblins is "a ridiculous caricature".

Do you believe in fairies or hobgoblins. If someone told you that they actually believed in the reality of fairies or hobgoblins, would you consider them to be rational?

I'd ask them why and what they consider a fairy or hobgoblin.

If they said because their parents and grandparents believed in fairies and hobgoblins and they were raised to believe in fairies or hobgoblins, would you consider them rational?

After all, a big part of your belief system (if you are an average theist) is based on your parent's belief system.

 

[Rival]

Now you need to explain why you think beliefs in fairies or hobgoblins is "a ridiculous caricature".

I didn't say it was. I never quoted that part.

If they said because their parents and grandparents believed in fairies and hobgoblins and they were raised to believe in fairies or hobgoblins, would you consider them rational?

Sure. If they get on with the rest of their lives like everyone else, they probably are perfectly rational.

After all, a big part of your belief system (if you are an average theist) is based on your parent's belief system.

Nope. We have minds of our own. We can come to independent conclusions. So there we go, another irreligious favourite soundbite: YoU OnLY BeLiEve It COs YoUR PArENTs DiD.

 

[ecco]

Beliefs in magic men in the skies are no more rational than beliefs in fairies or hobgoblins.

Do you believe in fairies or hobgoblins. If someone told you that they actually believed in the reality of fairies or hobgoblins, would you consider them to be rational?

This is a the reality of fairies or hobgoblins.

I didn't say it was. I never quoted that part.

I stand corrected, you made the "the reality of fairies or hobgoblins" comment to a portion of my comment about believing in "magic men in the skies" which I equated to believing in the reality of fairies or hobgoblins

 

[ecco]

Sure. If they get on with the rest of their lives like everyone else, they probably are perfectly rational.

So, you would consider people who believed in fairies or hobgoblins to be rational as long as they got on with the rest of their lives.

That says a lot about you.

 

[Rival]

So, you would consider people who believed in fairies or hobgoblins to be rational as long as they got on with the rest of their lives.

That says a lot about you.

There is no such thing as a human being with completely rational beliefs. As long as people can fit in with their society and get on with their daily living, they are likely completely normal. Not to mention, what is rational varies from one society to another.

 

[ecco]

After all, a big part of your belief system (if you are an average theist) is based on your parent's belief system.

Nope. We have minds of our own. We can come to independent conclusions. So there we go, another irreligious favourite soundbite: YoU OnLY BeLiEve It COs YoUR PArENTs DiD.

Did you miss the part about "if you are an average theist". Did you find it necessary to that concept to your stated "ONLY" comment to try to prove your point? Do you not understand the difference between many/most and all?

Do you deny that most Sunnis have Sunni parents?
Do you deny that most Catholics have Catholic parents?
Do you deny that most member of LDS have LDS parents?


In any case, you didn't deny that a big part of your belief system is based on your parent's belief system.

 

[ecco]

There is no such thing as a human being with completely rational beliefs. As long as people can fit in with their society and get on with their daily living, they are likely completely normal. Not to mention, what is rational varies from one society to another.

Nonsense. What is rational is rational.

What changes from region to region is what people accept as rational. Some Muslims believe it is rational to expect martyrs to get gifted with virgins. That is not a rational belief.

 

[Rival]

Did you miss the part about "if you are an average theist". Did you find it necessary to that concept to your stated "ONLY" comment to try to prove your point? Do you not understand the difference between many/most and all?

What is an 'average theist'?

Do you deny that most Sunnis have Sunni parents?
Do you deny that most Catholics have Catholic parents?
Do you deny that most member of LDS have LDS parents?

No. Your point seems to be that they only believe because their parents do or did, which is far too simplistic and taking away the fact that a person can think for himself. Sure, he's more likely to believe such and such, but that can be down to a boatload of factors that aren't just his parents. School, friends, study, environment outside immediate kin and so on.

In any case, you didn't deny that a big part of your belief system is based on your parent's belief system.

I said no such thing. My mom is a Christian and my dad is a Deist who flips between that and agnosticism. This has nothing to do with my beliefs. I have been a Zoroastrian, a Pagan and an atheist before now.

 

[Rival]

Nonsense. What is rational is rational.

What changes from region to region is what people accept as rational. Some Muslims believe it is rational to expect martyrs to get gifted with virgins. That is not a rational belief.

See, here you are projecting your own definition of rational onto other cultures.

 

[ecco]

What is an 'average theist'?

Duck and dodge.

Did you miss the part about "if you are an average theist". Did you find it necessary to that concept to your stated "ONLY" comment to try to prove your point? Do you not understand the difference between many/most and all?

Do you deny that most Sunnis have Sunni parents?
Do you deny that most Catholics have Catholic parents?
Do you deny that most member of LDS have LDS parents?

 

[ecco]

No. Your point seems to be that they only believe because their parents do or did,

Where did I say only? Did I really need to state grandparents, and siblings and aunts and uncles and family friends? Are you really so naive?

Do you deny that most Sunnis have Sunni parents?
Do you deny that most Catholics have Catholic parents?
Do you deny that most member of LDS have LDS parents?