Repenting for nothing...

[gnostic]

Since I'm more familiar or acquainted with Christian teachings than others, like from Judaism or Islam (though Muslims & Jews probably feel the way about this subject), or non-Abrahamic religions, I'll approach this topic from this (Christian) angle, but anyone can contribute and put non-Christian perspectives if they like.

One of the Christian teachings is the church urge people to REPENT.

Repenting seemed as essential as believing (in god & Jesus) or converting, or baptizing.

What happens if you're devout and done no wrong?

What happen then?

Do you still repent if there are nothing to repent about?

If yes, then what is the purpose of repenting for things you haven't done?
​

Or is it just custom, like praying certain number of times or at specific times?
​

It's my understanding that you would only repent or atone should you commit wrongdoing (or sin). So repenting or atoning for nothing would seem terribly illogical.

 

[Quintessence]

*cocks head*

Given the interpretation of what constitutes a "sin" is somewhat flexible and in other cases draconian, it seems to me that there is no such thing as a person who has done nothing wrong? I have heard that "sin" can simply mean missing the mark. We all make mistakes. Does repentance for minor errors not count?

 

[gnostic]

Given the interpretation of what constitutes a "sin" is somewhat flexible and in other cases draconian, it seems to me that there is no such thing as a person who has done nothing wrong? I have heard that "sin" can simply mean missing the mark. We all make mistakes. Does repentance for minor errors not count?

I don't know.

Does an error or mistake always count as a "sin"?

What is "sin"?

I know that people would consider murder, adultery and stealing is considered a "sin"...

...but say you're high school student and miscalculate a simple arithmetic, like 8+7=5. This mistake is an error, but would that be considered a "sin"?

Do you need to repent for something so trivial? Would a god be so petty as to punish a student for forgetting to carry a 1 in his calculation?

Is there a fine line between what is considered a "sin" and what's not?

 

[fantome profane]

Right, before you can repent you have to sin. So make it a good one.

 

[sojourner]

It comes, IMO, from Calvinism, and the belief in total depravity, thus, everyone needs to repent.

 

[The Fog Horn]

You highlight a crucial flaw in the Abrahamic religions, and most other fear based religions. The problem originated in the total ambiguity of punishment metered out by Yahweh, the god of the ancient Hebrews. They set up camp at the base of an erupting volcano that every now and then ate up a part of the camp. Those unfortunate enough to be sited in the areas singled out for Yahweh's wrath, beit a river of fire/seismic sink hole or earthquake (his extended arm) were scapegoated, a very common tactic of narcissistic group mentalities. Sodom and Gomorrah were probably no more sinful than any other towns but as they were devoured by volcanic wrath they were retrospectively blamed (scapegoated) for their own demise for the sin of 'lot', which is now interpreted as homosexuality. The very fact homosexuality was the sin of choice by the ancient Hebrews says more about the sin-of-the-day of the ancient Hebrews than it does about the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah. How did the Hebrews know the Sodom's were into kinky stuff? Did they spy on them? Did they partake in their wild parties? Either plausible options leads to pervsion on the part of the Hebrews but the most likely option is that the ancient Hebrews practiced homosexuality or just sexual sinfulness and these two unsuspecting towns were used very manipulatively after their demise (when they were unable to defend themselves) in a sneaky attempt to keep the flock in order. It is still very successful today. Lord knows how many closet homosexuals there are shacked up with fine fillies living hollow lives when they'd rather be shacked up with stallions, if only the fear of god was not hanging over their every thought.

It is this ambiguity and total unfairness of the fiery wrath of Yahweh that has turned the followers of the Abrahamic religions into paranoid, frightened, child-like, dutiful slaves to the ever threatened punishment that could even strike those who have done nothing wrong. Even raising your head above the parapet due to a desire to hold your head up high due to being completely innocent is treated as a sin worthy of punishment.....apparently you were too smug.

The thing is, you cannot win. Whether you are good or bad you cannot be sure you are on the side of Yahweh, because volcanoes are not blessed with discernment: they just do what they wanna do regardless of who you are, where you're from, what you've done and what you wanna do. You're dead meat whether you deserved it or not if you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Thank you for showing the inginuity to spot this major flaw that has for so long been explained away by the group narcissism mentality that even manages to explain away rape, pillage, murder, ritual animal slaughter and let's not even get into what they do to gays.

Peace......brothers and sisters of the world.......hopefully......one day....when logical rules.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I don't know.

Does an error or mistake always count as a "sin"?

What is "sin"?

I know that people would consider murder, adultery and stealing is considered a "sin"...

...but say you're high school student and miscalculate a simple arithmetic, like 8+7=5. This mistake is an error, but would that be considered a "sin"?

Do you need to repent for something so trivial? Would a god be so petty as to punish a student for forgetting to carry a 1 in his calculation?

Is there a fine line between what is considered a "sin" and what's not?

A student? Not so much.
An accountant whose mathematical error could possibly do harm (however insignificant), even if it's unintentional.... it's good to acknowledge that while we may miss the mark from time to time, we'd like to do better.

It's an "there's always room for improvement" sort of thing.

Of course, it helps to keep in mind that in Judaism, not all sins are equal. We are not condemned to an eternity of hellfire for eating non-kosher food. Repentance, in most cases, isn't about escaping punishment, but about wanting to grow and improve ourselves.

It's not that we're depraved... it's that nobody's perfect. We all make mistakes.



Something to consider... When we talk to someone we don't know, we might start off saying "Pardon me" or "Excuse me".

For what? What wrong have we done that we should seek to be pardoned? For daring to approach someone to perhaps ask them for the time, or for directions, or whatever?

We seek pardon just in case. In case we unintentionally might be disturbing their moment... interrupting their train of thought... whatever it might be. They might be perfectly willing to lend assistance, but we don't know that yet. So on the off chance that something wrong might happen or might have happened, we show a bit of humility that signifies consideration when seeking their attention.

Similarly, as we go about our lives, we occasionally seek pardon from some unintentional wrong we might have committed, whether we actually committed it or not, to show that we have a bit of humility and have consideration for God and His laws.

 

[Harmonious]

A student? Not so much.
An accountant whose mathematical error could possibly do harm (however insignificant), even if it's unintentional.... it's good to acknowledge that while we may miss the mark from time to time, we'd like to do better.

It's an "there's always room for improvement" sort of thing.

Of course, it helps to keep in mind that in Judaism, not all sins are equal. We are not condemned to an eternity of hellfire for eating non-kosher food. Repentance, in most cases, isn't about escaping punishment, but about wanting to grow and improve ourselves.

It's not that we're depraved... it's that nobody's perfect. We all make mistakes.



Something to consider... When we talk to someone we don't know, we might start off saying "Pardon me" or "Excuse me".

For what? What wrong have we done that we should seek to be pardoned? For daring to approach someone to perhaps ask them for the time, or for directions, or whatever?

We seek pardon just in case. In case we unintentionally might be disturbing their moment... interrupting their train of thought... whatever it might be. They might be perfectly willing to lend assistance, but we don't know that yet. So on the off chance that something wrong might happen or might have happened, we show a bit of humility that signifies consideration when seeking their attention.

Similarly, as we go about our lives, we occasionally seek pardon from some unintentional wrong we might have committed, whether we actually committed it or not, to show that we have a bit of humility and have consideration for God and His laws.

Building on this...

We are about to enter what Jews refer to as the Penitential season: a month in preparation, and then Rosh Hashana, and Yom Kippur, both days of Judgment.

One of the many features in our liturgy is an alphabetical laundry list of sins that have been done in our proclaimed confession.

But here is the thing about them. The confession is never given as an "I did this," but always as a "WE did this." Part of the point of this is not to embarrass the individual who has indeed sinned in this way, as more than one person has probably sinned in the same way. (Otherwise, there would be no need for it to be a part of the liturgy.) Part of the point of this is to ask God for forgiveness, using the merit of the entire Jewish people. And part of the point is that, while not every Jew sinned with any individual sin listed, SOMEONE did somewhere, and as we are looking for group merit, we also accept group guilt.

This is rather Jewish-centered, but that is the way our liturgy is structured.

It isn't the be-all and end-all for the Jewish concept of forgiveness, but it is the beginning of an explanation.

 

[TheKnight]

Since I'm more familiar or acquainted with Christian teachings than others, like from Judaism or Islam (though Muslims & Jews probably feel the way about this subject), or non-Abrahamic religions, I'll approach this topic from this (Christian) angle, but anyone can contribute and put non-Christian perspectives if they like.

One of the Christian teachings is the church urge people to REPENT.

Repenting seemed as essential as believing (in god & Jesus) or converting, or baptizing.

What happens if you're devout and done no wrong?

What happen then?

Do you still repent if there are nothing to repent about?

If yes, then what is the purpose of repenting for things you haven't done?
​

Or is it just custom, like praying certain number of times or at specific times?
​

It's my understanding that you would only repent or atone should you commit wrongdoing (or sin). So repenting or atoning for nothing would seem terribly illogical.

If I were to generalize the Jewish answer to this question it would be, if you haven't done anything wrong you don't have to repent.

Christians believe everyone is flawed from birth. Thus everyone must repent. Jews don't view everyone as being sinful from birth.

On the personal level, I believe that none of us are perfect and that any act of "repentance" should stem from a desire to improve oneself. Because we can always improve somewhere, even if the place from where we are improving is not a bad one.


ETA: Of course I post immediately following the posts of two Jews. I should refresh more often.

 

[Starsurfer93]

Originally posted by gnostic
Do you still repent if there are nothing to repent about?

If yes, then what is the purpose of repenting for things you haven't done?
​

Or is it just custom, like praying certain number of times or at specific times?

Well I'm no Biblical Scholar, but from what I understand about the concept of repentance in the Christian faith, I think it's based around the concept of "The Original Sin" committed by Adam and Eve. Because of the Sin committed by Adam and his wife, their line (meaning everyone according to the Abrahamic Faiths) was stained with the curse of sin. So even if you haven't really done anything wrong, you must repent because you are imperfect and stained by sin at birth. A stain that can only be wiped clean through repentance and Christ... But again, that's just what I got from it.

You do bring up a rather interesting point though. Just what exactly constitutes sin? There are many who would consider homosexuality a sin. Myself and many other people on the other hand would strongly disagree with that belief.

What's even more confusing is the concept punishment in regards to sin. Are all sins treated equal? Is the boy who cheats on his math test to be treated the same as the serial rapist?

Interesting stuff...

 

[Harmonious]

What's even more confusing is the concept punishment in regards to sin. Are all sins treated equal? Is the boy who cheats on his math test to be treated the same as the serial rapist?

Not according to my belief system...

 

[gnostic]

Right, before you can repent you have to sin.

Right.

So make it a good one.

In for a penny, in for a pound.

 

[gnostic]

If I were to generalize the Jewish answer to this question it would be, if you haven't done anything wrong you don't have to repent.

Christians believe everyone is flawed from birth. Thus everyone must repent. Jews don't view everyone as being sinful from birth.

I have never understood the Christian's Original Sin concept.

If you're sinful at birth (not "you" specifically), do you repent or ask for forgiveness for "being born"?

The Original Sin sort of makes God seemed tyrannical and petty.

I understand that each individual being responsible for their own action, but for the action of others who are either long dead or mythological figures (in this case, with Adam and Eve) seemed inappropriate and illogical.

 

[gnostic]

Well I'm no Biblical Scholar, but from what I understand about the concept of repentance in the Christian faith, I think it's based around the concept of "The Original Sin" committed by Adam and Eve. Because of the Sin committed by Adam and his wife, their line (meaning everyone according to the Abrahamic Faiths) was stained with the curse of sin. So even if you haven't really done anything wrong, you must repent because you are imperfect and stained by sin at birth. A stain that can only be wiped clean through repentance and Christ... But again, that's just what I got from it.

I was going to go to the Original Sin position, but I do understand what you are saying. But like I said in my reply to TheKnight, don't understand and don't like this Christian dogma/concept of the Original Sin.

 

[waitasec]

Since I'm more familiar or acquainted with Christian teachings than others, like from Judaism or Islam (though Muslims & Jews probably feel the way about this subject), or non-Abrahamic religions, I'll approach this topic from this (Christian) angle, but anyone can contribute and put non-Christian perspectives if they like.

One of the Christian teachings is the church urge people to REPENT.

Repenting seemed as essential as believing (in god & Jesus) or converting, or baptizing.

What happens if you're devout and done no wrong?

What happen then?

Do you still repent if there are nothing to repent about?

If yes, then what is the purpose of repenting for things you haven't done?
​

Or is it just custom, like praying certain number of times or at specific times?
​

It's my understanding that you would only repent or atone should you commit wrongdoing (or sin). So repenting or atoning for nothing would seem terribly illogical.

the purpose for repenting, i think it comes from an attitude of heart that is required...and i am in agreement with poisonshady...which is understanding that there is always room for improvement...
but don't we all have that sense of remorse when we make a mistake that was either intentional or not...wouldn't this sense guide us to a better version of ourselves anyway?

 

[gnostic]

Hi poisonshady313. Haven't seen you around for quite some time.

A student? Not so much.
An accountant whose mathematical error could possibly do harm (however insignificant), even if it's unintentional.... it's good to acknowledge that while we may miss the mark from time to time, we'd like to do better.

It's an "there's always room for improvement" sort of thing.

Of course, it helps to keep in mind that in Judaism, not all sins are equal. We are not condemned to an eternity of hellfire for eating non-kosher food. Repentance, in most cases, isn't about escaping punishment, but about wanting to grow and improve ourselves.

It's not that we're depraved... it's that nobody's perfect. We all make mistakes.



Something to consider... When we talk to someone we don't know, we might start off saying "Pardon me" or "Excuse me".

For what? What wrong have we done that we should seek to be pardoned? For daring to approach someone to perhaps ask them for the time, or for directions, or whatever?

We seek pardon just in case. In case we unintentionally might be disturbing their moment... interrupting their train of thought... whatever it might be. They might be perfectly willing to lend assistance, but we don't know that yet. So on the off chance that something wrong might happen or might have happened, we show a bit of humility that signifies consideration when seeking their attention.

Similarly, as we go about our lives, we occasionally seek pardon from some unintentional wrong we might have committed, whether we actually committed it or not, to show that we have a bit of humility and have consideration for God and His laws.

I understand the "room for improvement" point and the ask-for-pardon" thingy.

To me, pardon is done more out of etiquette/manner than true repenting...in most of the cases.

And improving yourself can be done without repenting. There are factors where you do something wrong, and you do repent for your actions; this of course, depends on the situation.

 

[gnostic]

the purpose for repenting, i think it comes from an attitude of heart that is required...and i am in agreement with poisonshady...which is understanding that there is always room for improvement...
but don't we all have that sense of remorse when we make a mistake that was either intentional or not...wouldn't this sense guide us to a better version of ourselves anyway?

Sure, I agree with poisonshady. But it really depends on the circumstances.

 

[waitasec]

Sure, I agree with poisonshady. But it really depends on the circumstances.

as do most things really.

i often find that religious hope somehow gets recognized as having more meaning than the idea of hope by itself, same with this idea of repenting...
what gives repenting more meaning then remorse? is it because the repenting is focused on something other than the self...but that is why we feel remorse.

 

[adam9]

Yours eyes commit a sin when you look at that which your not supposed(looking at opposite gender in a lustful way) your mouth commits a sin when you speak about anyone behind their back in a bad way whether its true or untrue, your ears commit a sin when you listen to someone gossiping and backbiting, your feet sin by you walking to places which displease God and yes there is a fine line between thing which a halaal(permitted)and things that are haram(sinful and not permitted). In Islam we alnowledge that yes we are imperfect and that we commit sin either unknowingly(pride,arrogance,showing off,) or knowingly, and God knows harp in his mercy he gives his servents a way back to himself.

 

[Tristesse]

Since I'm more familiar or acquainted with Christian teachings than others, like from Judaism or Islam (though Muslims & Jews probably feel the way about this subject), or non-Abrahamic religions, I'll approach this topic from this (Christian) angle, but anyone can contribute and put non-Christian perspectives if they like.

One of the Christian teachings is the church urge people to REPENT.

Repenting seemed as essential as believing (in god & Jesus) or converting, or baptizing.

What happens if you're devout and done no wrong?

What happen then?

Do you still repent if there are nothing to repent about?

If yes, then what is the purpose of repenting for things you haven't done?
​

Or is it just custom, like praying certain number of times or at specific times?
​

It's my understanding that you would only repent or atone should you commit wrongdoing (or sin). So repenting or atoning for nothing would seem terribly illogical.

Most christians would say that no human has done nothing wrong or is sinless, and therefore, every christian is in need of repentance.