Republican, Conservative option for US Healthcare Reform

[Duck]

Why do you think they didn't propose any of these things when they held the presidency, and majorities in both houses of Congress?

Cause they were too busy with other important things...Like building a 700 mile fence to control a 2000 mile border.

 

[Alceste]

Rick, the problem here is that you are using what you think of as "common sense". In other words, you're making things up based on what seems rational to you based on your preconceived notions and ideals. There's no step in your reasoning process to accommodate exposure to any facts. Auto and I are look at the facts. If they appear to contradict our "common sense", then we re-examine our preconceived notions and ideals.

Very straightforward process.

The reason your opinion can't compete with ours is that they are not equal: it may be internally rational, but because it does not accommodate any facts at all, it is inferior to an argument that is both internally rational and compatible with the facts.

 

[jamaesi]

I am not disputing your cites. I want a better health care system as well. I'm not saying we cannot improve health care. The fact that everyone is ignoring is, we will need more facilities to accomplish this goal. We will need more doctors and nurses as well.

If you have a boat that will hold 100 people safely and you load the boat with 150 persons it will sink and everyone will suffer. Now, from my perspective, you want 50 people to get off the boat so a different 50 can board the boat.

Or...... do you want to overload the boat?

I'm saying we need more boats, but they are expensive. If my cost per person to buy another boat is 100 dollars a head, I cannot receive 50 dollars a head and afford another boat. If I only have one skipper, I will need to find more skippers.

Lets say we are on the titanic and have a limited amount of life boats. If we overload the life boats, everyone will suffer. We have some hard choices to make. I say women and children get on the boats first.

It's really funny you should mention the Titanic. One of the many reasons it's so well remembered was because of poor planning with purposefully bringing less lifeboats than were needed (like a for profit health care system that leaves so many in need of health care- for example the one we have now in the USA) and just ploughing through everything in her way because she was the bestest ship ever, screw iceberg warnings (we have the bestest health care system in the WORLD in America so why reform it or have universal health care even when the facts show America has one of the worst in developed nations and that there's a pretty big warning that we need to change things) and then lots of people needlessly died (and like on the Titanic it's poor people suffering the most too here with the whole health care crisis).

Well to be fair, Captain Smith decided to alter the course a little to the south with the first iceberg warnings (I guess that can cover whatever plan the Republicans have that just isn't enough to reform health care) and the later warnings about the HUGE ICEBERGS UP AHEAD (lots of people are dying from not having health care, tort reform isn't going to help!) were then ignored.

But yeah, actually it's pretty hilarious you bring up the Titanic.

 

[Engyo]

I'm finding the cartoonists are saying much of what I want to point out these days on this subject..........

 

[Alceste]

My dad pointed out that the insurance lobby has successfully reframed the debate completely away from the topic of universal coverage, and that legislators on both 'sides' (centre-right and extreme right) and the majority of the American public have pretty much allowed them to do this without putting up a fight. That's propaganda for you - those people really know what they're doing. I guess that's why they make the big bucks.

 

[Autodidact]

I am not disputing your cites. I want a better health care system as well. I'm not saying we cannot improve health care. The fact that everyone is ignoring is, we will need more facilities to accomplish this goal. We will need more doctors and nurses as well.

If you have a boat that will hold 100 people safely and you load the boat with 150 persons it will sink and everyone will suffer. Now, from my perspective, you want 50 people to get off the boat so a different 50 can board the boat.

Or...... do you want to overload the boat?

I'm saying we need more boats, but they are expensive. If my cost per person to buy another boat is 100 dollars a head, I cannot receive 50 dollars a head and afford another boat. If I only have one skipper, I will need to find more skippers.

Lets say we are on the titanic and have a limited amount of life boats. If we overload the life boats, everyone will suffer. We have some hard choices to make. I say women and children get on the boats first.

Although under our current system, it's women and children who are least likely to be in the boat.

How about this idea? How about if we take the $1 trillion that we spend on health insurance, and spend it on care instead.

Rick: Look, really look a these two graphs, and think about what they are saying:

Rank Country

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland

We spend more than anyone else, and what we get for our money: 37th best health system in the world. We don't need to spend more money, and we don't need to reduce care. We need to get rid of the 1/2 of our money that is wasted, the part that other countries AREN'T spending. It will not cost more money, and it will not kick anyone out of the boat, and it will not reduce care.

Those are the facts.

I do not expect you to base your opinion on them, however.

 

[Autodidact]

I am not disputing your cites.

Then don't say it's not true that children are dying. They are.

 

[yossarian22]

Then don't say it's not true that children are dying. They are.

I doubt anybody is physically capable of posting this with a straight face.

 

[Autodidact]

I doubt anybody is physically capable of posting this with a straight face.

Are you denying that American children died in 2008 because they did not have access to health care? I fail to see the humor.

 

[yossarian22]

Are you denying that American children died in 2008 because they did not have access to health care? I fail to see the humor.

Responding to "I'm not disputing your cites" with "Well good, because children are dying" sounds like something out of a Monty Python sketch.

Your last comment reads like something out of mad tv.

 

[Alceste]

Responding to "I'm not disputing your cites" with "Well good, because children are dying" sounds like something out of a Monty Python sketch.

Your last comment reads like something out of mad tv.

I must have missed the post where Rick retracted this statement: "The reality is, you are saying children are dieing and it is just not so."

I would bet you a fiver he still believes this is the case, despite my cites (Auto hasn't posted any yet on this subject), and will continue to make this claim from now until the end of time, whether or not he is willing to dispute them. (Like, instead of changing the subject, which is what he did).

 

[T-Dawg]

We spend more than anyone else, and what we get for our money: 37th best health system in the world.

I'm sure we already discussed why that list isn't accurate. Still, we're wasting money with the system we have now and we definitely need a change. It's just not as bad (comparing to other countries) as some people claim.By the way, do conservatives sincerely believe that our system is fine, or are they just lying to us so they can keep their profits?
EDIT: Sorry, the spaces in between the sentences don't seem to work on my laptop for some reason...

 

[yossarian22]

I must have missed the post where Rick retracted this statement: "The reality is, you are saying children are dieing and it is just not so."

I would bet you a fiver he still believes this is the case, despite my cites (Auto hasn't posted any yet on this subject), and will continue to make this claim from now until the end of time, whether or not he is willing to dispute them. (Like, instead of changing the subject, which is what he did).

One would think that the last 3-4 threads about healthcare would have established the futility in arguing with him. Engaging him with such an absurd response is pointless and lowers your own credibility.

 

[Alceste]

One would think that the last 3-4 threads about healthcare would have established the futility in arguing with him. Engaging him with such an absurd response is pointless and lowers your own credibility.

You're assuming the purpose of my responses to him is to convince him, rather than to counter his opinions with facts for the benefit of other visitors to the thread.

I'm not the type to let lies go uncontested. Pretty sure my credibility is fine.

 

[Reverend Rick]

One would think that the last 3-4 threads about healthcare would have established the futility in arguing with him. Engaging him with such an absurd response is pointless and lowers your own credibility.

What a terrible thing to say Yoss. I have changed my opinion about many things here on RF after many a heated debate. Your prejudice of Conservatives is showing. Can you see any redeeming qualities in conservatism? Please prove me wrong. )(

 

[Reverend Rick]

I would bet you a fiver he still believes this is the case, despite my cites (Auto hasn't posted any yet on this subject), and will continue to make this claim from now until the end of time, whether or not he is willing to dispute them. (Like, instead of changing the subject, which is what he did).

You want to talk about exceptions? Yes, you proved your point about deaths. These children where covered by government insurance right? They where shuffled around, something like that. I know you cannot shuffle a child when they have a fever.

I changed the subject because I do not want to get tied down with the details of a small percentage. Are you saying these exceptions will not exist under a single payer system as well?

 

[Autodidact]

I'm sure we already discussed why that list isn't accurate.

Baloney. WHO isn't out to generate propaganda. Some right-wing propaganda mills don't like the result, so make up some way to spin it as inaccurate, but it isn't.

What measure should we use, infant mortality? U. S. is # 33. Lifespan? U.S. is # 42. Percentage of population with coverage? Can't find a stat, but we're at least #37 or worse.

 

[Autodidact]

You want to talk about exceptions? Yes, you proved your point about deaths. These children where covered by government insurance right? They where shuffled around, something like that. I know you cannot shuffle a child when they have a fever.

I changed the subject because I do not want to get tied down with the details of a small percentage. Are you saying these exceptions will not exist under a single payer system as well?

It's not complicated, Rick. More children die with our system than would with a single-payer system. Significantly more. That's one of the reasons our infant mortality rate, which should be #1 in the world, is # 33. If we had single payer, fewer children would die. Single-payer saves lives.

And always remember, we're paying TWICE AS MUCH as countries with single-payer. We pay more, and get less. That's what you're advocating. How can you justify that? That's plain fiscal irresponsibility.

 

[Falvlun]

If you have a boat that will hold 100 people safely and you load the boat with 150 persons it will sink and everyone will suffer. Now, from my perspective, you want 50 people to get off the boat so a different 50 can board the boat.

Or...... do you want to overload the boat?

Why would you build more boats when they are going to be half empty since you haven't yet passed the bill that allows more people to afford getting on the boat?

 

[yossarian22]

What a terrible thing to say Yoss. I have changed my opinion about many things here on RF after many a heated debate. Your prejudice of Conservatives is showing. Can you see any redeeming qualities in conservatism? Please prove me wrong. )(

Considering we have had at least 3 threads in which the same argument has occurred with only superficial changes in the style of argument between each one, yes. I would give up. I doubt this thread would do anything to move people away from UHC, and the people who are against UHC already have the largest case of cognitive dissonance since the 1920s.

Any redeeming quality of conservatism is destroyed by its total support of market liberalism.

e: any redeeming aspect of conservative ideology is destroyed by its support of market liberalism.