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Respect for Marriage Act makes Congresswoman cry real tears.

"Religious Freedom" means the right to make others conform to your religious worldview.

  • Yes

    Votes: 2 4.3%
  • No

    Votes: 44 95.7%

  • Total voters
    46

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member


Vicky Hartzler (R, Missouri) cried real tears as she begged her congressional comrades not to pass the bill, which she called "misguided and dangerous." Thank goodness, her own nephew, who is gay, had the cojones to to put her firmly in her place.

Why, I really have to ask, does she, or anybody else in the world give a rat's tiny hiney who I marry, who you marry, or whether we marry or not?

Why does she think -- AND I WOULD REALLY LIKE AN ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION FROM RELIGIOUS PEOPLE -- that it is robbing her of her "religious freedom" to deny soimebody else the right to live their life as they see fit? Is "religious freedom" really about the freedom to order other people to do what you want them to, and not to do what you don't want them to?
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I will freely admit my evil lefty biases straight off the bat.

But it’s things like this that makes me say, why don’t you care about freedom? To the the opposing party (in this case the party/people supporting this act specifically.)
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I will freely admit my evil lefty biases straight off the bat.

But it’s things like this that makes me say, why don’t you care about freedom? To the the opposing party (in this case the party/people supporting this act specifically.)
Unless one takes on a government job where one has to perform wedding services for everyone this should have no effect on others. I guess that even the thought of gay people getting married is too much for some.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Unless one takes on a government job where one has to perform wedding services for everyone this should have no effect on others. I guess that even the thought of gay people getting married is too much for some.
Heck, the thought of other people dancing, or singing, has been too much for some religious folks. You know the type: "Life isn't meant to be enjoyed, it's meant to be gotten on with until you die and go to heaven!"
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
LOL! I loved the gay nephew. "Its not that hard.". Auntie in response " Yes <sniff, sob> it is."
The thing is, Hartzler spent the first two minutes of her speech bashing the bill, claiming its "only purpose is to hand the federal government a legal bludgeoning tool to drive people of faith out of the public square and silence anyone who dissents."

My question is this: how, exactly, is telling this stupid ***** that she is not permitted to direct the course of my life driving "people of faith out of the public square?" She is making the implicit (it's almost explicit) claim that her faith allows her to dictate -- period-end-of-story.

And how is it silencing "anyone who dissents?" She's perfectly free to say "I think same-sex marriage is wrong, and gays are sicko perverts who deserve to die." She's just not allowed to make that happen. Most real adults recognize that their dissent and disagreement doesn't necessarily apply to anybody else. You don't like broccoli? Don't eat it! You don't want to marry somebody of the same sex? Don't! Easy-peasy!
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The thing is, Hartzler spent the first two minutes of her speech bashing the bill, claiming its "only purpose is to hand the federal government a legal bludgeoning tool to drive people of faith out of the public square and silence anyone who dissents."

My question is this: how, exactly, is telling this stupid ***** that she is not permitted to direct the course of my life drviing "people of faith out of the public square?" She is making the implicit (it's almost explicit) claim that her faith allows her to dictate -- period-end-of-story.

And how is it silencing "anyone who dissents?" She's perfectly free to say "I think same-sex marriage is wrong, and gays are sicko perverts who deserve to die." She's just not allowed to make that happen. Most real adults recognize that their dissent and disagreement doesn't necessarily apply to anybody else. You don't like brocolli? Don't eat it! You don't want to marry somebody of the same sex? Don't! Easy-peasy!
I know. She wants the force of law behind her dissent. It took me a while to understand that marriage equality has no negative effect on me. Perhaps her problem, and it appears to be inexcusable in her case, is that she is insulated from gay people. If they don't exist in her mind doing evil to them is not wrong.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I know. She wants the force of law behind her dissent. It took me a while to understand that marriage equality has no negative effect on me. Perhaps her problem, and it appears to be inexcusable in her case, is that she is insulated from gay people. If they don't exist in her mind doing evil to them is not wrong.
She is not isolated at all! Her own nephew -- the son of either her sister or brother -- is gay. The family forced him into conversion therapy for quite some time. You know families in the south, she's very much aware.

She just doesn't understand why everybody else doesn't have to do what she wants. That's probably why she ran for Congress -- to make laws to force compliance with her views.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
She is not isolated at all! Her own nephew -- the son of either her sister or brother -- is gay. The family forced him into conversion therapy for quite some time. You know families in the south, she's very much aware.

She just doesn't understand why everybody else doesn't have to do what she wants. That's probably why she ran for Congress -- to make laws to force compliance with her views.
That was the main reason why I said it was inexcusable in her case.

The insulation is her own.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Unless one takes on a government job where one has to perform wedding services for everyone this should have no effect on others. I guess that even the thought of gay people getting married is too much for some.
Exactly. As a non American I have to make the observation that it’s only ever, even now, the Republican Party that has a problem with it.
I thought they were for freedom and/or liberty? But again not American so what do I know :shrug:
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Exactly. As a non American I have to make the observation that it’s only ever, even now, the Republican Party that has a problem with it.
I thought they were for freedom and/or liberty? But again not American so what do I know :shrug:
The Republicans used to be for that. At one time the Republicans were more for freedom than the Democrats are now. That changed during my lifetime.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Law already changed to allow legal property sharing in defacto relationships.

So gay marriage is in fact a legal rights answer.

Marriage legally in law was to respect the rights of baby child legal parent inheritance.

Changed by babies born out of wed lock.

Wed..lock meaning engaged legality in civilisation purposes record keeping taxes etc governate.

Legal rights is the true issue not marriage.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Interesting
Can I ask, when do you think this shift occurred? Roughly
It began in the 1960's. For example when it came to the Voting Rights Act, which was written to make it harder to discriminate against black voters there was stronger Republican support than Democratic support. Even in the early 70's the Republicans had not gone totally to the dark side. Nixon started two programs that almost all Republicans hate today. He began OSHA and the EPA. The Occupational Safety and Health Act and the Environmental Protection Agency. If you asked most Republicans if those were Democratic or Republican ideas today most would try to say that they were "socialist Democratic laws".
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Why, [does] anybody else in the world give a rat's tiny hiney who I marry, who you marry, or whether we marry or not?

It's not that hard to understand when one stops to think about it.

Consider for a moment that marriage is an important contract that governs keystone social relationships in the human species. In particular, think about the historical role marriage has played in foreign relations, diplomacy, taxation, transference of property, granting of title and prestige, pedigree breeding, and so forth. Setting aside these somewhat more dated roles marriage has traditionally had, also think about the sacredness of the contract, the depth of its meaning, the implications it has for social and cultural norms, and so forth.

In short, marriage is an extremely serious business and how it is conducted is not a question to be handled lightly. Different cultural groups throughout history have had very particular and specific standards for it, and with good reason - marriage is a huge vehicle of social relations between humans in ways that have a very strong impact on the entire tapestry of that society. From this vantage point, it becomes more shocking to not care about marriage; being very particular about how it is handled is essential when one recognizes the critical social role it plays in a society.


Why does she think [snip] that it is robbing her of her "religious freedom" to deny soimebody else the right to live their life as they see fit?

I obviously can't answer from her perspective given I don't share it, but as before, if we consider things from a broader vantage point it isn't that hard to understand. All limitations on human behavior infringe upon human freedoms. Doesn't matter if we're talking speed limits, what kinds of marriages are okay, or credentialing who can practice medicine. All of these are social contracts that deny humans the ability to behave in certain ways and represent a loss of freedom to do what you want in exchange for social order. If a particular group doesn't like the social order being created by said limitations, well yeah, they're going to call it a loss of freedom. Because it is... from their point of view.

In any case, personally, I have a hard time celebrating this change. I can celebrate it when the ghoulish remission of women's rights is fixed, and am livid angry that this gets through but basic flipping women's rights can't get through. I know that sounds petty, but... basic flipping women's rights for flips's sake.
 
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