Response to a post (About myself being Gender Fluid)

[Kfox]

That some women, for whatever reason, don't have those.

Some women don't have hands either. That's why I said "outside of deformities and anomaly's.

 

[SomeRandom]

So is it your view that rather than a sexual binary of male and female ; 2, that there are 3; male female & intersex? That intersex is it's own sexual category?

Yes, I would say so.
In fact my own cultural background (on my mother’s side) seems to see it this way. Perhaps not with the term “intersex”, per se. As that’s an English term.
But the Hijra or “third sex” are probably a close-ish enough translation.

And truth be told, the concept of a third sex/gender (or even more, depending on the place/culture) is actually pretty old, in terms of world cultures, I mean

Maybe not like ancient. (Idk I’m no historian lol)
But it’s not exactly recent, to be fair

 

[SomeRandom]

Thats why when I worked at a gas station I just quit using gendered nouns when I didn't know a customer. I got it wrong a few times, and that was more than enough for me. So I just started to avoid the sirs and maams and everything worked out in the end and no one cared.

Lol I used those terms religiously in retail. But I think due to how young I was (teen early 20s) and how tired I looked (and being that I live in Australia lol) everytime I got it wrong, the usual response was
“Big night, eh? Have some more water, love, you’ll be right.”
Very handy get out of jail free pass, let me tell ya! Lol

That said, after working with the public, I learned very quickly that people come in all shapes and sizes. In more ways than one! If you catch my drift?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes, I would say so.
In fact my own cultural background (on my mother’s side) seems to see it this way. Perhaps not with the term “intersex”, per se. As that’s an English term.
But the Hijra or “third sex” are probably a close-ish enough translation.

And truth be told, the concept of a third sex/gender (or even more, depending on the place/culture) is actually pretty old, in terms of world cultures, I mean

Maybe not like ancient. (Idk I’m no historian lol)
But it’s not exactly recent, to be fair

Among the oldest burial sights/graveyards we've found, there was observed to be a skelton that appeared to be male but was buried in the same fashion is the skeletons appearing female.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Lol I used those terms religiously in retail. But I think due to how young I was (teen early 20s) and how tired I looked (and being that I live in Australia lol) everytime I got it wrong, the usual response was
“Big night, eh? Have some more water, love, you’ll be right.”
Very handy get out of jail free pass, let me tell ya! Lol

That said, after working with the public, I learned very quickly that people come in all shapes and sizes. In more ways than one! If you catch my drift?

I was taught to use them religiously, but it turns out I hate being wrong with such mistake that's very easy to avoid.

 

[SomeRandom]

I was taught to use them religiously, but it turns out I hate being wrong with such mistake that's very easy to avoid.

That’s fair enough.

My coworkers often commented that I was exceedingly polite because I used those terms for all customers, even if I had to blame a mistaken one on a hangover to avoid drama lol

Truth be told, such terms for me were like a huge novelty lol
See in Indian (and I’m sure most Asian) communities, it is considered culturally polite to refer to all elders as Uncle/Aunt, mother/father or grandmother/grandfather. Depending on the age difference between you. Since I live in Australia, I am allowed to use the English terms, which I am thankful for because holy moly there are a lot of ways to speak such terms lol. And not always a one to one translation, if that makes sense?

So I was beyond grateful for the easier English terms of Ma’am and Sir and I liked that they sounded fancy lol

 

[SomeRandom]

Among the oldest burial sights/graveyards we've found, there was observed to be a skelton that appeared to be male but was buried in the same fashion is the skeletons appearing female.

Interesting.

There does seem to be quite a bit of acknowledgement of folks who didn’t exactly “fit into a binary” in quite a few ancient cultures. Granted such folks were not always treated well by said culture. But acknowledged all the same.

I’ve picked that much up in my geeking out on my collection of world myths, at least. Quite interesting, at least to this myth nerd lol

 

[crossfire]

2. As trans, I felt there was an expectation for me to "pass", ie look like the other gender. That's not to say I couldn't. However, I also consider gender to be a bit of a fluid thing, and in a general sense, while it's often treated a bit more binary by people than I feel it actually truly is. Perhaps it's binary for some, though - I'm not really debating that. And yes, there are some who treat their gender in a straight up, binary fashion, while some, like myself, are a bit more fluid with it - it's even that way among some cis people (especially cis women).

Yeah, I agree with you that cis women generally have more freedom to have a more fluid gender expression than most. It's only been recently that less feminine presenting women have been started to be hassled about it--and it's connected to mistaking them for transwomen or some other form of trans-persecution.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

So what I am missing; explain what it means biologically to be a woman.

It means a multitude of things in varying degrees. Biological women generally have XX chromosomes, but not always. They can have wombs, but not always. They generally have Fallopian tubes, but not always. They can have breasts, but not always. They can produce ovums, but not always. They are often smaller than men, but not always. They are often less covered in hair than men, but not always.

All of these things exist in variance not just in a simple binary sense, but in wide variance and to varying degrees among women. There are people neither you nor I would doubt are biologically female despite not having only X chromosomes, or not having a womb, or being large, of being hairy, etc.. There is no one singular trait, in isolation, that makes someone biologically female. It's a broad and largely variable classification encompassing a wide range of variable and non-exclusive biological features and traits, like almost all forms of biological classification.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Some women don't have hands either. That's why I said "outside of deformities and anomaly's.

This is basically the same as saying "everyone in the world is Japanese.*"

*As long as we ignore all of the exceptions.

 

[Kfox]

It means a multitude of things in varying degrees. Biological women generally have XX chromosomes, but not always.

Are you saying there are examples of people having a Y sex chromosome and are biologically female? Is this considered a birth defect? Or is this considered normal.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Are you saying there are examples of people having a Y sex chromosome and are biologically female?

Yep.

Swyer syndrome: MedlinePlus Genetics

Swyer syndrome is a condition that affects sex development. Explore symptoms, inheritance, genetics of this condition.

medlineplus.gov

Is this considered a birth defect?

It's considered a biological condition.

Or is this considered normal.

What's normal?

 

[Kfox]

This is basically the same as saying "everyone in the world is Japanese.*"

*As long as we ignore all of the exceptions.

People not born Japanese are not via birth defects.

 

[Kfox]

Yep.

Swyer syndrome: MedlinePlus Genetics

Swyer syndrome is a condition that affects sex development. Explore symptoms, inheritance, genetics of this condition.

medlineplus.gov

It's considered a biological condition.


What's normal?

Normal is when your biological conditions are not considered birth defects. The fact that it is called a syndrome says it is because syndrome's are associated with disease and disorder.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

People not born Japanese are not via birth defects.

That's an arbitrary designation. The point is that deliberately ignoring exceptions makes your rule nonsensical.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Normal is when your biological conditions are not considered birth defects.

So you determine these things by arbitrary designations?

The point is, there objectively ARE people who have XY chromosomes who you would consider biologically female. Or would you not consider someone who has ovaries, fallopian tubes, a vagina, and practically all the other biological features of a woman a woman purely because of their chromosomes?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

So you determine these things by arbitrary designations?

The point is, there objectively ARE people who have XY chromosomes who you would consider biologically female. Or would you not consider someone who has ovaries, fallopian tubes, a vagina, and practically all the other biological features of a woman a woman purely because of their chromosomes?

I've put in my two cents as why chromosomes don't matter when talking about womanhood or manhood because sex doesn't dictate gender as a separate sociological concept anyway, neverminding that biological sex is also not reducible to chromosomes either.

But talking about intersex in general I think the most fascinating is chimerism. Which cannot be determined by a simple sr-y test because different tissues can have different genetic profiles. Literally their hand can have male chromosomes while their feet have female, and they can produce both types of gamates. Meaning they can be the closest to true human hermaphroditism.

 

[Kfox]

So you determine these things by arbitrary designations?

The point is, there objectively ARE people who have XY chromosomes who you would consider biologically female. Or would you not consider someone who has ovaries, fallopian tubes, a vagina, and practically all the other biological features of a woman a woman purely because of their chromosomes?

This is not something I arbitrarily designated, this is based in biological science. Whatever reason they have for designating it with disease or disorder is something biologists have determined; not me. Perhaps with a little research you can find out why.

 

[PureX]

I personally like this idea of 'gender fluidity'.

I like the idea that someone, having had some various experiences in the world and with other people as both a male being, and a female being, and having given these experiences some honest consideration, would decide hence forth to move through life and the world as both, or as neither in particular, according to which ever they think and feel is appropriate. There is a kind of equanimity and common sense to this approach to interacting with life and with other people that I admire, if this is possible for someone to do.

I recently saw a bit of an interview with Billie Eilish as she was explaining why she did not like wearing her recent blond hair style. (Her natural hair color is a "dirty blond" color like her brother Finneas'. Something she has not worn since she was 11 years old. ) And why she has chosen to go back to dark hear and stick to her 'non-girlish' clothing attire. As she explained it the simple fact of the matter was that she found that people did not tend to take her as seriously when she had the blond hair and wore more feminine (revealing) type clothing. And she has stated in the past that ever since she was a child she knew she had a very strong, masculine aspect to her personality, as well as a feminine one and that the masculine one made her far more capable and effective in dealing with the world around her. So it has been the side she chooses to put out into the world as a professional performer. Saving her more feminine side for the people she knows well and is close with, like her family, friends, and partners.

This made sense to me, and I admire her for having the personal insight to recignize these sides of herself, and that each has a place in the world, but no necessarily the same place in the world. So she can choose which aspect of herself she will express relative to the situation she is in.

I say, "good on 'er".

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I personally like this idea of 'gender fluidity'.

I like the idea that someone, having had some various experiences in the world and with other people as both a male being, and a female being, and having given these experiences some honest consideration, would decide hence forth to move through life and the world as both, or as neither in particular, according to which ever they think and feel is appropriate. There is a kind of equanimity and common sense to this approach to interacting with life and with other people that I admire, if this is possible for someone to do.

I recently saw a bit of an interview with Billie Eilish as she was explaining why she did not like wearing her recent blond hair style. (Her natural hair color is a "dirty blond" color like her brother Finneas'. Something she has not worn since she was 11 years old. ) And why she has chosen to go back to dark hear and stick to her 'non-girlish' clothing attire. As she explained it the simple fact of the matter was that she found that people did not tend to take her as seriously when she had the blond hair and wore more feminine (revealing) type clothing. And she has stated in the past that ever since she was a child she knew she had a very strong, masculine aspect to her personality, as well as a feminine one and that the masculine one made her far more capable and effective in dealing with the world around her. So it has been the side she chooses to put out into the world as a professional performer. Saving her more feminine side for the people she knows well and is close with, like her family, friends, and partners.

This made sense to me, and I admire her for having the personal insight to recignize these sides of herself, and that each has a place in the world, but no necessarily the same place in the world. So she can choose which aspect of herself she will express relative to the situation she is in.

I say, "good on 'er".

I don't see anything particularly "masculine" about Ellish, honestly. She's just a young woman, barely can call her a tomboy. And since when does "feminine clothing" mean that it necessarily must be revealing? No wonder why so many young woman don't want to be seen as "feminine" or even women now.