Resurrection of Christ: Literal fact or spiritual reality?

[BilliardsBall]

Ergo, you do not necessarily need to accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour in order to be saved.

The right passport might make the above mentioned requirement redundant.

Right?

Ciao

- viole

Both testaments agree, trust in God, not self, is the key requirement, certainly.

I urge you to demonstrate this wonderful trust in your posts.

 

[viole]

Both testaments agree, trust in God, not self, is the key requirement, certainly.

I urge you to demonstrate this wonderful trust in your posts.

What should I demostrate?

You said:

1) Israel will be saved. Since I doubt that countries can be saved, I assumed you mean the Israelis. Ergo, the jews. The fav people of God. For some reason.

Now, since most Jews in Israel do not recognize Jesus as Lord and Savior, and they are not even close to do that, my conclusion folows by logical necessity.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Muffled]

I think the contradictions in the resurrection story are worth discussing here. For the Christians they have to find a way to harmonize the gospels. Omega2xx says that they don't contradict but each writer merely omitted things.

For the Baha'is, they have to show how a something that is being reported as an actual event is somehow to be taken as a symbolic story.

You are definitely right. Neither of them might be worth following. But then why are they here? If not from a supreme God, why would people make up this stuff?

I believe there are not any.

I believe it is not a matter of omission but simply people viewing different things as important enough to write about. This is true o f most witnesses. One person may talk about a suspect wearing red suspenders and another about him having curly hair.

I don't believe they can. I believe their belief is most likely emanating from a misunderstood verse in the Qu'ran.

 

[Muffled]

No, they don't have to "harmonize" anything, they have to demonstrate why multiple supposed eyewitnesses got very important details of the exact same supposed account wrong. They cannot do so. They can only make excuses.

And people make stuff up all the time. When people are afraid, they invent reasons not to be. This is very common. None of it is demonstrably true.

I don't believe you can prove they are wrong.

I believe these are men filled with the Holy Spirit so what they say can be trusted.

 

[Muffled]

Israel is God's Chosen People in BOTH testaments and even all Israel will be saved - Romans 11:26.

I believe Paul is not as prophetic as one might think and I disagree with his interpretation. Turning ungodliness from Jacob does not necessarily mean all of Jacob. One person would suffice for that prediction to come true.

 

[BilliardsBall]

My belief is that God does not want me to take anything on blind faith. It is morally dangerous to do so. Everything should be questioned. Everything should be investigated. And, nothing should be taken for granted.

I've given you 7 points above. The first 6 ought to be investigated by you immediately. I'm not sure there's anything more I can do to convince you of the rightness of my position (trusting in Christ) because it's a spiritual choice you must make or not make.

You have six fine points above that bring Israel and the Bible head and shoulders above all other religions and creeds. Will you investigate further?

 

[BilliardsBall]

What should I demostrate?

You said:

1) Israel will be saved. Since I doubt that countries can be saved, I assumed you mean the Israelis. Ergo, the jews. The fav people of God. For some reason.

Now, since most Jews in Israel do not recognize Jesus as Lord and Savior, and they are not even close to do that, my conclusion folows by logical necessity.

Ciao

- viole

1. Israel will be saved per OT and NT prophecy when Jesus returns. They will see Jesus leading a triumphant group of believers and recognize that mistakes have been made.

2. I realize most Jews don't currently trust Jesus. However--and this comes from my experience as a Jew, one who has witnessed to hundreds of Jewish people--most Jews also don't believe in the OT or read the OT (or the Talmud, Kabbalah, wisdom literature, Maimonides, etc.). Being skeptics, they use weak arguments for the OT and against the NT, like skeptics who make weak arguments against both testaments, for the simple lack of a) Bible knowledge b) a relationship with the Bible's God.

3. I'd love to see you exhibit more trust in God, is what I meant. I read you saying a lot of things negative about the Bible and Christians--but I don't know how deep your faith in (a) god is.

 

[viole]

1. Israel will be saved per OT and NT prophecy when Jesus returns. They will see Jesus leading a triumphant group of believers and recognize that mistakes have been made.

2. I realize most Jews don't currently trust Jesus. However--and this comes from my experience as a Jew, one who has witnessed to hundreds of Jewish people--most Jews also don't believe in the OT or read the OT (or the Talmud, Kabbalah, wisdom literature, Maimonides, etc.). Being skeptics, they use weak arguments for the OT and against the NT, like skeptics who make weak arguments against both testaments, for the simple lack of a) Bible knowledge b) a relationship with the Bible's God.

3. I'd love to see you exhibit more trust in God, is what I meant. I read you saying a lot of things negative about the Bible and Christians--but I don't know how deep your faith in (a) god is.

So, it is therefore allowable to accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour only after you actually see Him? Cool.

And I do not have any faith in any god. But I am confident I would become a Christian as well, if I saw Jesus leading a group of triumphant believers.

Ciao

- fiole

 

[BilliardsBall]

I believe Paul is not as prophetic as one might think and I disagree with his interpretation. Turning ungodliness from Jacob does not necessarily mean all of Jacob. One person would suffice for that prediction to come true.

The next verse is "When I take away the people's sins."

He will remove ALL ungodliness from Jacob (not a guy named Jacob) when the deliverer comes from Zion (Jesus on the Mount). This is my COVENANT with them, when I take away THEIR sins.

THEIR sins.

 

[BilliardsBall]

So, it is therefore allowable to accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour only after you actually see Him? Cool.

And I do not have any faith in any god. But I am confident I would become a Christian as well, if I saw Jesus leading a group of triumphant believers.

Ciao

- fiole

Such is my hope for the many atheists of today -- that seeing becomes believing rather than instant destruction!

However, you may have misunderstood my point. I've NEVER seen Jesus and I believe in Him. As a matter of fact, for every 1,000 born agains I've encountered - and on multiple continents, too - MAYBE 1 of them claims to have seen Jesus Christ, personally.

So you don't get a free pass there. I'm sorry. You can read the Bible and make good connections or bad, but I also see where people on BOTH sides have confirmatory bias. Me, I admit that I thought, "Man, if there's a 1 in 1,000 chance I can choose eternal life or Hell, I'd be a FOOL to miss the boat."

 

[viole]

Such is my hope for the many atheists of today -- that seeing becomes believing rather than instant destruction!

However, you may have misunderstood my point. I've NEVER seen Jesus and I believe in Him. As a matter of fact, for every 1,000 born agains I've encountered - and on multiple continents, too - MAYBE 1 of them claims to have seen Jesus Christ, personally.

So you don't get a free pass there. I'm sorry. You can read the Bible and make good connections or bad, but I also see where people on BOTH sides have confirmatory bias. Me, I admit that I thought, "Man, if there's a 1 in 1,000 chance I can choose eternal life or Hell, I'd be a FOOL to miss the boat."

Seeing will not become belief. It will become knowledge.

But the Jew will get a free pass, won't they? They will be saved when they see Jesus and convert, but I assume we will not. It will be too late for us. For some reason.

And concerning the boat: there are so many. What makes you sure you are on the right one?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Muffled]

The next verse is "When I take away the people's sins."

He will remove ALL ungodliness from Jacob (not a guy named Jacob) when the deliverer comes from Zion (Jesus on the Mount). This is my COVENANT with them, when I take away THEIR sins.

THEIR sins.

I beleive Jesus does takeaway the sins of those offspring of Jacob who receive Him as Lord and Savior. I believe I have met more than one that has. I have also met those who have not.

I believe when the name Jacob is used here it means decsndants of Jacob but it is a general statement that does not necessarily mean all the descendents of Jacob.

 

[Cephus]

I don't believe you can prove they are wrong.

I believe these are men filled with the Holy Spirit so what they say can be trusted.

It isn't my job to prove them wrong, it is their job to prove themselves right. I couldn't care less what ridiculous nonsense you believe, I care what you can prove, which we both know is nothing.

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe there are not any.

I believe it is not a matter of omission but simply people viewing different things as important enough to write about. This is true o f most witnesses. One person may talk about a suspect wearing red suspenders and another about him having curly hair.

I don't believe they can. I believe their belief is most likely emanating from a misunderstood verse in the Qu'ran.

None of the writers was an eyewitness. Only Mary Magdalene was there in each story. Was Jesus there? Two angels, one angel, no angels? Since they weren't eyewitnesses, but had to rely on someone who was there, did they get a different story or just decided on their own to omit things?

What is that verse in the Quran that they misunderstand?

 

[Ingledsva]

Did Jesus physically rise from the dead or this an allegorical story?

Perhaps its both and maybe neither?

What is the best way of understanding this core Christian belief?

I think they were preaching a spiritual rising after death and "sleeping" in Sheol, - with Jesus the first to rise, - and then someone turned it into a walking dead story.

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[RESOLUTION]

Did Jesus physically rise from the dead or this an allegorical story?

Perhaps its both and maybe neither?

What is the best way of understanding this core Christian belief?

I believe he did rise from the dead. Other wise it would be pointless, wouldn't it... Christianity, that is..

 

[Dawnofhope]

I believe he did rise from the dead. Other wise it would be pointless, wouldn't it... Christianity, that is..

Christianity seems very meaningful with a physically resurrected Christ to me. If the sole purpose of Christianity was to teach people that they could be physically resurrected then you would have a point.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I think they were preaching a spiritual rising after death and "sleeping" in Sheol, - with Jesus the first to rise, - and then someone turned it into a walking dead story.

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I think we may be in agreement. Do you think the story is a way of teaching people about the life after death?

 

[Dawnofhope]

The resurrection of Christ is a historical fact. I know this to be the case because I am unable to distinguish what I want to be true from what is actually true. However, this causes me no cognitive dissonance, so it works for me. Since it works for me, and I have what amounts to a very limited theory-of-mind and an unchecked ego, it should also work for you.

Thank you for sharing you thoughts.

If the standard of the truth is what works for each person, then there is immediately a contradiction, as seeing the resurrection as spiritual works for me, and seeing it as physical doesn't. You may be right and I may be wrong. However we need another standard to determine what is the truth. Perhaps we should try a little harder to distinguish what we want to be true from what is actually true?

 

[Ingledsva]

I think we may be in agreement. Do you think the story is a way of teaching people about the life after death?

About their ideas of an afterlife.

Jesus was Jewish. He would have taught that all the dead go to Sheol, and await final judgment.

I think we have a lot of misunderstanding, and add-ons, after Jesus' death.

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