Revelations

[biased]

Have any gnostic groups considered revelations scripture? as for a more general question How do you as a Gnostic view revelations? Please be as elaborate as possible :yes:

 

[Bunny]

I don't know how particular schools of Gnostic thought view it, unfortunately.

Personally, I view it like I do pretty much everything in the Bible: Parts of it are inspired by the Unknown God, parts of it are inspired by the Demiurge, and most of it is a human trying to make sense of everything. :yes:

 

[biased]

I don't know how particular schools of Gnostic thought view it, unfortunately.

Personally, I view it like I do pretty much everything in the Bible: Parts of it are inspired by the Unknown God, parts of it are inspired by the Demiurge, and most of it is a human trying to make sense of everything. :yes:

Can you go into specifics about which parts of revelation are from the Unknown God and which from the demiurge?

 

[frangipani]

I see the book of revelation as the work of the demiurge simply because its whole structure is based on destruction and recreation of the matter world, i.e. , new heaven and new earth prophecy. I think the apostle John being on the isle of Patmos, a prison, was probably susceptible to the demiurge's influence, after all Christ while occupying the body of the man Jesus was also tempted by the demiurge but overcame his influence. Of course knowing that the matter universe was created in error because the Sophia from the All created the Demiurge in error, and subsequently he created the matter universe and world, and the greater error still he breathed life into the man or animal he created making him into a living soul, a human being. While true that without the carnal birth in the matter world and the gift of the inherited soul we would not exist as we are. However due to this error we do exist but we find no comfort here and no peace of mind. Having sort the Truth behind our existence we discovered through Christ the Truth about The Father and this creation etc, and as a result realise we are a living soul, a spiritual being imprisoned in the body of flesh. Our sole purpose and desire is to attain a state of spiritual peace and harmony. We know that is only attainable through the desire of our being through the application of the knowledge of the Truth through Christ. This conditions our spirit and soul, the essential us to be prepared for our meeting and joining with the Ineffable One. Our hearts greatest desire, so why would we want or even consider wanting to be part of another material world.

 

[Bunny]

Can you go into specifics about which parts of revelation are from the Unknown God and which from the demiurge?

Not at the moment. It's been awhile since I read Revelation. :sorry1:

 

[nazz]

Have any gnostic groups considered revelations scripture? as for a more general question How do you as a Gnostic view revelations? Please be as elaborate as possible :yes:

Someone posted a thread about the Valentinian Canon. Apparently his disciples quoted from it.

I'll try to answer the second part of your question tomorrow.

 

[ELoWolfe]

Yes, supposedly the Valentinians used it.

It is a tricky piece of scripture, almost not being included in the Orthodox traditions. And it isn't hard to see why. How many various sects and groups have been inspired by it? More surprising, how many are still around for it?

Personally, I could go either way. I definitely see the violent nature representing the panic of the Demiurge. I recently wrote to myself a correlation of the serpent and Christ. Not of the idea that the serpent was a savior of Gnosis in Eden, but that the Christ was representative of the bronze serpent as a warning to the Jews from the Demiurge. In such regard, the dragon which is said to be the "serpent of old" could be the demonization of the Light who the Demiurge feels took 1/3 of its stock.

But on the other hand, despite the strong language of sin and punishment, I could see it as a Gnostic tale that uses heavy symbolism. The use of the horrible punishments isn't against innocent people, or even literal people, but against negative emotions and passions within us. For example, the Four Horsemen.

The White Horse is the discovery of Gnosis and the Light. Matthew 17:2 "And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light." John 8:12 "When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, 'I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.'"

The Red Horse is the internal war we fight within ourselves that we have to destroy the sinful. Romans 7:22-23 "For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me."

The Black Horse, understood as famine, is the starving of the passions we wage war against. Constantly we heard about the wheat and the chaff. Allegorically, this is separating the truth and lies; knowledge and non-knowledge. If you read what the Black Horseman is saying (Revelation 6:6 "Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, 'Two pounds of wheat for a day’s wages, and six pounds of barley for a day’s wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!&#8221, the oil and wine, representing the sacraments, are untouched. Keeping only the good wheat and barley, we can only feed the good teachings of Christ (and of the gnosis).

The Pale Horse, death, is the final result of the efforts by the student. Romans 6:6-7, 11-12 "For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin... In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires."

Now is this all true? I don't know. I would have to read through Revelation at length, but from a mental exercise, I could see there being valuable jewels in it. Matthew 13:45-46 "'Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it.'"

But please don't take this as authoritative.

 

[nazz]

Yes, supposedly the Valentinians used it.

But does that really merit saying it was part of their "canon"? I mean atheists quote from the Bible too but it would be silly to speak of an "atheist canon".

But on the other hand, despite the strong language of sin and punishment, I could see it as a Gnostic tale that uses heavy symbolism. The use of the horrible punishments isn't against innocent people, or even literal people, but against negative emotions and passions within us. For example, the Four Horsemen.

The White Horse is the discovery of Gnosis and the Light. Matthew 17:2 "And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light." John 8:12 "When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, 'I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.'"

The Red Horse is the internal war we fight within ourselves that we have to destroy the sinful. Romans 7:22-23 "For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me."

The Black Horse, understood as famine, is the starving of the passions we wage war against. Constantly we heard about the wheat and the chaff. Allegorically, this is separating the truth and lies; knowledge and non-knowledge. If you read what the Black Horseman is saying (Revelation 6:6 "Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, 'Two pounds of wheat for a day’s wages, and six pounds of barley for a day’s wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!”), the oil and wine, representing the sacraments, are untouched. Keeping only the good wheat and barley, we can only feed the good teachings of Christ (and of the gnosis).

The Pale Horse, death, is the final result of the efforts by the student. Romans 6:6-7, 11-12 "For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin... In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires."

Now is this all true? I don't know. I would have to read through Revelation at length, but from a mental exercise, I could see there being valuable jewels in it. Matthew 13:45-46 "'Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it.'"

But please don't take this as authoritative.

OK but I like it a lot!

 

[ELoWolfe]

That is the problem with the Valentinians, I am finding. They are less a sect and more a school. And a school that doesn't necessarily have a core.

I am attempting to understand the Valentinians better for my own benefit, but not only is there is a split between "West" and "East," but it seems many of the various teachers that are mentioned all have their own opinions.

Now at the time of the Valentinians, there was still no official canon so the Valentinians may have preferred certain books (one teacher may use Revelation, for example, but another did not). The Bible used in the Catholic Church wasn't formalized until the Council of Trent in the 16th century (with almost half of the voters voting nay!). However, Councils at the end of the 4th century, beginning of the 5th, seem to have "agreed" on the canon to use.

Valentinus, Heracleon, and Ptolemy were long dead by then.

Because of their ability to "get along with" the Proto-Orthodox churches, they used the same scriptures as would be used. Some, for example, would have no doubt used the Shepard of Hermas or another the Infancy Gospel of Thomas. What I think is more striking, however, is what they didn't use.

 

[nazz]

Because of their ability to "get along with" the Proto-Orthodox churches, they used the same scriptures as would be used. Some, for example, would have no doubt used the Shepard of Hermas or another the Infancy Gospel of Thomas. What I think is more striking, however, is what they didn't use.

I don't think we should read too much into that either. Just because they did not quote something does not mean they did not use it or consider it beneficial.

 

[ELoWolfe]

No, you're correct. They may have used them. I can't find any source that really defines what wasn't used, like the Marcions have.

But it seems weird that they wouldn't have quoted from it, if they quoted from so much others (those now in the Orthodox canon as well as those not in the canon). These writings were known by time the individual teachers were spreading Valentinianism. Their silence in pulling anything from them seems particularly odd.

 

[nazz]

No, you're correct. They may have used them. I can't find any source that really defines what wasn't used, like the Marcions have.

But it seems weird that they wouldn't have quoted from it, if they quoted from so much others (those now in the Orthodox canon as well as those not in the canon). These writings were known by time the individual teachers were spreading Valentinianism. Their silence in pulling anything from them seems particularly odd.

I see a number of explanations though. Could be they used them in oral but not written teaching. Could be references to them were made in Gnostic lit no longer extant. Or it could be they just didn't see anything useful in them in reference to Gnostic thought. Paul for example does not quote from every OT book. But that does not mean Paul did not consider the ones he never quoted as not authoritative.

 

[nazz]

Revelations seem to be a reversion to the Jewish conception of God and Jewish messianic expectations. Seen in this light it is hard to see it of any use to the Gnostic.

However if "God" is taken to refer to the Demiurge, or what I call the Dark Side of God, then the punishments meted out by this "God" could take on a Gnostic interpretation. Such wrath would fall on those who are not children of the Father.

One could interpret the story of the Dragon in Rev. 12-13 as referring to the Demiurge.

 

[ELoWolfe]

I think an interesting project would be to read Revelation and take notes based on specific points of view.

First, read it as if the author and the experience had no gnostic thought at all. Everything contained was completely orthodox.

Second, read it as if it was an orthodox writer who had a gnostic experience but did not know the symbolism of it. Perhaps this would be the more mystical reading. Interpretations would be in orthodox thought to an unorthodox event.

Finally, read it as if the author and the message was a gnostic book.

I think I will begin this tomorrow for my own thoughts. It will help me to refamiliarize myself with the text and would be an interesting exercise.

 

[ELoWolfe]

Revelations seem to be a reversion to the Jewish conception of God and Jewish messianic expectations. Seen in this light it is hard to see it of any use to the Gnostic.

Somehow, Leviticus was used. How that book had anything to do with Gnosticism, I have yet to see.

 

[nazz]

I think an interesting project would be to read Revelation and take notes based on specific points of view.

First, read it as if the author and the experience had no gnostic thought at all. Everything contained was completely orthodox.

Second, read it as if it was an orthodox writer who had a gnostic experience but did not know the symbolism of it. Perhaps this would be the more mystical reading. Interpretations would be in orthodox thought to an unorthodox event.

Finally, read it as if the author and the message was a gnostic book.

I think I will begin this tomorrow for my own thoughts. It will help me to refamiliarize myself with the text and would be an interesting exercise.

Sounds like a cool idea. If I have time I will join you!