Revisiting Revelation

[PoetPhilosopher]

I have multiple speculations about the book of Revelation. Here they are:

1. Revelation occured in the past. This can be seen through some Roman Empire like themes contained in certain verses. I've tried to role-play this side arguing with others before, but still had to concede as there are a few verses later on in the book of Revelation that make my side extremely tricky.

2. Revelation wasn't written by the same John that wrote John and may not be an accurate tale of prophecy in general, just the rantings and ravings of some other man named John.

3. Revelation tells the tale of two beasts. Through understanding symbolism in Daniel and Revelation as well as particular statements, one can give a guess that the sea beast is Rome, and it is said a woman rides it later in Revelation. It is believed that women are metaphor for churches. So for a church to ride a kingdom, it would confirm the narrative that possibly, the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns is the Vatican. While there are other questions like what the beast that comes from the Earth is, this interpretation is rather scary because it paints the picture that God will judge Christian groups that sway from some picture that isn't now clear of what Christianity is suppose to be.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I have multiple speculations about the book of Revelation. Here they are:
1. Revelation occured in the past. This can be seen through some Roman Empire like themes contained in certain verses. I've tried to role-play this side arguing with others before, but still had to concede as there are a few verses later on in the book of Revelation that make my side extremely tricky.
2. Revelation wasn't written by the same John that wrote John and may not be an accurate tale of prophecy in general, just the rantings and ravings of some other man named John.
3. Revelation tells the tale of two beasts. Through understanding symbolism in Daniel and Revelation as well as particular statements, one can give a guess that the sea beast is Rome, and it is said a woman rides it later in Revelation. It is believed that women are metaphor for churches. So for a church to ride a kingdom, it would confirm the narrative that possibly, the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns is the Vatican. While there are other questions like what the beast that comes from the Earth is, this interpretation is rather scary because it paints the picture that God will judge Christian groups that sway from some picture that isn't now clear of what Christianity is suppose to be.

1. The setting for Revelation is Not the first century but set for our day or time frame - Revelation 1:5
2. After John wrote Revelation ( in very-vivid word pictures ) John then wrote his gospel account at the end of the first century.
As with other Bible books Revelation has corresponding or parallel cross-reference verses thus in harmony with the rest of Scripture.
3. No Rome, No Vatican involved. Yes, judgement will start with the ' house of God ' and since " Christendom " ( so-called Christian but mostly in name only ) professes to follow the God of the Bible, then rightly so that adverse judgement starts with fake 'weed/tares' Christendom.

 

[sun rise]

Revelation's symbolism is mostly very obscure to me. Given when it was written, anyone seeing something like WWII or nukes hitting Japan would have nothing to draw upon to document what he saw except that which was current in his time and place. So to me that's part of the picture.

The other is that a part of that book evokes an image that is present in other cultures: the white horse. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. From Hinduism we have Kalki:

Images like this that exist across cultures and times to me have a special significance.

 

[Tambourine]

2. Revelation wasn't written by the same John that wrote John

That's not speculation, that's confirmed by most mainstream Bible scholars AFAIK.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

I have multiple speculations about the book of Revelation. Here they are:

1. Revelation occured in the past. This can be seen through some Roman Empire like themes contained in certain verses. I've tried to role-play this side arguing with others before, but still had to concede as there are a few verses later on in the book of Revelation that make my side extremely tricky.

2. Revelation wasn't written by the same John that wrote John and may not be an accurate tale of prophecy in general, just the rantings and ravings of some other man named John.

3. Revelation tells the tale of two beasts. Through understanding symbolism in Daniel and Revelation as well as particular statements, one can give a guess that the sea beast is Rome, and it is said a woman rides it later in Revelation. It is believed that women are metaphor for churches. So for a church to ride a kingdom, it would confirm the narrative that possibly, the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns is the Vatican. While there are other questions like what the beast that comes from the Earth is, this interpretation is rather scary because it paints the picture that God will judge Christian groups that sway from some picture that isn't now clear of what Christianity is suppose to be.

..........And here I was opening the thread thinking it would be about the concept of revelation itself (God revealing to the Prophets......)



As for this OP, I'll write more later but 1 is the closest. The Preterist view combined with a more general and universal understanding of how it's themes apply to history itself, is how it has been classically understood by Catholics and Orthodoxy.

Protestants went wild with it and turned it into a conspiracy book.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

That's not speculation, that's confirmed by most mainstream Bible scholars AFAIK.

Yep, different writers but both are literature that emerged out of the same proto-Gnostic early Jewish-Christian community known as the Johannines.

 

[moorea944]

I have multiple speculations about the book of Revelation. Here they are:

1. Revelation occured in the past. This can be seen through some Roman Empire like themes contained in certain verses. I've tried to role-play this side arguing with others before, but still had to concede as there are a few verses later on in the book of Revelation that make my side extremely tricky.

2. Revelation wasn't written by the same John that wrote John and may not be an accurate tale of prophecy in general, just the rantings and ravings of some other man named John.

3. Revelation tells the tale of two beasts. Through understanding symbolism in Daniel and Revelation as well as particular statements, one can give a guess that the sea beast is Rome, and it is said a woman rides it later in Revelation. It is believed that women are metaphor for churches. So for a church to ride a kingdom, it would confirm the narrative that possibly, the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns is the Vatican. While there are other questions like what the beast that comes from the Earth is, this interpretation is rather scary because it paints the picture that God will judge Christian groups that sway from some picture that isn't now clear of what Christianity is suppose to be.

Great questions, thanks for sharing!

Revelation is a time line of events. I do want to say that Rome and the Pope are involved. Rome is mostly the seals, but more of that later...... Same with the Beast of sea and earth and the dragon. All events too.

You mentioned judging Christian groups too. That's not only in Revelation but also the Gospels and the Apostle's letters. But it's not really on the "groups", but more of what someone did through their life. You have to remember that not all people will be raised and not all people will be judged at the return of our Lord.

But to understand the beasts and dragon you need to read Daniel first, they have most of the same beasts in it. I'll explain more later. Remember that Revelation is symbolic..... (some Literal things in it too)

 

[Goddess Kit]

With an imagination, any kind of writing is possible.

 

[MNoBody]

I have multiple speculations about the book of Revelation. Here they are:

1. Revelation occured in the past. This can be seen through some Roman Empire like themes contained in certain verses. I've tried to role-play this side arguing with others before, but still had to concede as there are a few verses later on in the book of Revelation that make my side extremely tricky.

2. Revelation wasn't written by the same John that wrote John and may not be an accurate tale of prophecy in general, just the rantings and ravings of some other man named John.

3. Revelation tells the tale of two beasts. Through understanding symbolism in Daniel and Revelation as well as particular statements, one can give a guess that the sea beast is Rome, and it is said a woman rides it later in Revelation. It is believed that women are metaphor for churches. So for a church to ride a kingdom, it would confirm the narrative that possibly, the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns is the Vatican. While there are other questions like what the beast that comes from the Earth is, this interpretation is rather scary because it paints the picture that God will judge Christian groups that sway from some picture that isn't now clear of what Christianity is suppose to be.

it seems to be a gnostic document that is a stand alone text......
enigmatic, as it is written in symbolic code only known to those initiated into these secret societies....
included into the canon as it is so ambiguous, mysterious and could be so woven in by artful crafty scribes with an agenda......confusion, mystery...and that has certainly been the case.....
imagine trying to make sense of the Enigma machine codes every day.....
they seem innocuous or ridiculous, but it was well known that was totally an appearance....
cryptography is a confusing science on the face of it.
so unless you have been initiated into the gnostic secret society it is unlikely you will make any kind of useful sense of that document.
so it seems to be in any case.

 

[JW Minister]

I have multiple speculations about the book of Revelation. Here they are:

1. Revelation occured in the past. This can be seen through some Roman Empire like themes contained in certain verses. I've tried to role-play this side arguing with others before, but still had to concede as there are a few verses later on in the book of Revelation that make my side extremely tricky.

2. Revelation wasn't written by the same John that wrote John and may not be an accurate tale of prophecy in general, just the rantings and ravings of some other man named John.

3. Revelation tells the tale of two beasts. Through understanding symbolism in Daniel and Revelation as well as particular statements, one can give a guess that the sea beast is Rome, and it is said a woman rides it later in Revelation. It is believed that women are metaphor for churches. So for a church to ride a kingdom, it would confirm the narrative that possibly, the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns is the Vatican. While there are other questions like what the beast that comes from the Earth is, this interpretation is rather scary because it paints the picture that God will judge Christian groups that sway from some picture that isn't now clear of what Christianity is suppose to be.

This book explain Revelation with scriptural support by Jehovahs Witnesses
this book was in symbols so different things represented something for instance the woman riding on a beast represented false religion the beast the United Nations

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/publication/r1/lp-e/re

 

[Wandering Monk]

Apparently God is unable to make things sufficiently clear that people can't argue about them. This is particularly hilarious when we see them squabbling about what's going to happen in the future (or the past, or in the spiritual plane, or....) LOL

 

[csa_ap_hill]

I john stood on the shore of the sea and saw a beast come up with 7 heads and ten horns. This isn't NERO no sorry it's not for if it was where's my immortality? Why is there still death and disease one would think in 2k years or more God if he's been here the whole time correctly working through humans as in God works in mysterious ways we'd all be immortal not wouldn't we so no that's not NERO.
John in time Traveling forward not backwards and no it's not centered around Europe and the Middle east It's not and to claim it is, is wrong. For we as Christians are the ones grafted in so were the wild branches and so that makes us heirs to the promise as well. And as heirs that's makes us Israel as well so NO it's not centered around some small little Country.
Proof I am right as to what I say... Israel the Countries population is what? A few million people along with their thorns the Philistines. But what was it that God promised Abraham? He would make his seed more than the stars or grains of sand on the sea. Remember Israel the top part of the whole broke off and when Assyria took them captive, but contrary to popular belief never returned. Only Judah and Benjamin and some of he Levite's returned, and they returned from Persia not Assyria. Daniel was in Judah not part of the top kingdom and they were taken 100 years or so after the top kingdom was by the Babylonians not Assyrians. Israel speaking of the top tribes never did. Some of them may have but as a whole they didn't. They all spread throughout the world IE: Africa, Europe, Asia and then the USA... So no the promise isn't and or Revelations is not just centered around the Country.
OK so... and letting the bible define itself it says not worry I will tell you what the beast is and the women is. OK so the beast is made up of water. The water represents peoples nations multitudes and tongues this woman sits on 7 mountains and NO! not Rome not NY or Washington DC but 7 continents. IE: a global system and or all of mans Govt's and false religious beliefs.
Nations peoples Multitudes and tongues are the political sea of which the beast comes up from. IE Mans creations of Opinions laws rules etc... that is what makes up the beast.
I have not yet decided or know exactly or could it be both the UN and the United States since the UN does sit on our shores but the two horned beast is the UN or the USA or both and or the False prophet since most of the false teachings that we've been living by for 2k years or more have come from them all these years. No I am not saying that the false prophet has been teaching here in America for that long but it began in the old world then traveled here, and it took 2k years or more to do so.
But again since it does say the two horned beast does do that which the 7 headed beast did and has the same power and authority to do as the beast before it I assume it to mean us the USA and or the UN with the UN's symbol of two horns of wheat surrounding the earth or coming out of it depending on ones perspective. But look to the Iron in Daniel's Dream it continues down through the toes.
and under the feet or part of the feet is clay. Iron did represent the Roman Empire, but what was Rome? it was a Republic so are we. We are a Republic just like Rome was and we're the ones in our days mixed with miry clay. Seed could mean as some have said babies and marriages etc... As in what Europe did before WW1 but Seed is also as the wheat and tares seed, the word of God the tares the enemy's seed/ word and then you've got truth mixed with tares or crap as I like to say. Or seed could mean democracy since we are a Democratically elected Socialist Republic so....
But yes the beast is all Govt's and it's leaders of those Countries, the Whore isn't exactly the but all churches plus globalism and the system and systems it represents.
Is what we're seeing now with the Churches being hated by the Govt as in the Shut downs or is it they are being persecuted? For one they've not been truthfully so I believe it's the whore being hated but...
Has anyone asked if masks or the Vaccine the mark of the beast?

 

[Muffled]

I believe at least the first two are in error. So you going to tell me that "a new heaven and a new earth" occurred in the past and there are many other things a well.

 

[Muffled]

1. The setting for Revelation is Not the first century but set for our day or time frame - Revelation 1:5
2. After John wrote Revelation ( in very-vivid word pictures ) John then wrote his gospel account at the end of the first century.
As with other Bible books Revelation has corresponding or parallel cross-reference verses thus in harmony with the rest of Scripture.
3. No Rome, No Vatican involved. Yes, judgement will start with the ' house of God ' and since " Christendom " ( so-called Christian but mostly in name only ) professes to follow the God of the Bible, then rightly so that adverse judgement starts with fake 'weed/tares' Christendom.

I believe I see nothing in Rev 1:5 about time. I see this in Rev. 1:1 "the things that must soon take place." Of course soon is relative as Peter says:
2Pet 3:8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

[Muffled]

Revelation's symbolism is mostly very obscure to me. Given when it was written, anyone seeing something like WWII or nukes hitting Japan would have nothing to draw upon to document what he saw except that which was current in his time and place. So to me that's part of the picture.

The other is that a part of that book evokes an image that is present in other cultures: the white horse. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. From Hinduism we have Kalki:

Images like this that exist across cultures and times to me have a special significance.

I believe the image is nice but is he called faithful and true? And did he precede the Book of Rev.?

 

[JW Minister]

I believe at least the first two are in error. So you going to tell me that "a new heaven and a new earth" occurred in the past and there are many other things a well.

The term "a new heaven and a new earth" the scriptures point to people as the earth and governing as new heavens Ill explain :

Sometimes the scriptures used different expressions to mean the opposite

Genesis 11:1, NASB: "Now the whole earth used the same language and the same words

This is speaking before Jehovah confused the languages at Babel obvisiously the planet cant speak so this referred to people

Jeremiah 22:1-30
O earth,* earth, earth, hear the word of Jehovah.

King James Bible
O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD.

The planet cant speak or hear logically God was referring to people

There are passages that refer to the world

King James Bible
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Just like he speaks of the earth symbolically to mean people so he has used the world as well

King James Bible
They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

New International Version
Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them.

This is not speaking of the planet or not necessarily the people

“World” can mean (1) humankind as a whole, apart from their moral condition or course of life, (2) the framework of human circumstances into which a person is born and in which he lives (and in this sense it is at times quite similar to the Greek ai·onʹ, “system of things”), or (3) the mass of mankind apart from Jehovah’s approved servants.


The poor translation The King James Version used “world” to render not only koʹsmos but also three other Greek words in some of its renderings of them (ge; ai·onʹ; oi·kou·meʹne) and five different Hebrew words (ʼeʹrets; cheʹdhel; cheʹledh; ʽoh·lamʹ; te·velʹ). This produced a blurring or confused blending of meanings that made it difficult to obtain correct understanding of the scriptures involved. Later translations have served to clear up considerably this confusion.

In one basic sense, then, koʹsmos refers to all humankind. The Scriptures therefore describe the koʹsmos, or world, as being guilty of sin



New Living Translation
Furthermore, we have seen with our own eyes and now testify that the Father sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.


So in just these scriptures we see the term earth and world are used to mean people so the words END OF THE WORLD dont mean the earth but logically mean people

Psalm 37:10
New International Version
A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found.


King James Bible
But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

So this is the end of the world of evil God will rid the earth of wickedness

Just like today we hear the term the Arab world, third world these do not refer to another planet somewhere but logically to people.


What now about NEW HEAVENS?

Does this mean the literal heavens ? Preachers in the Churches will say yes God will burn up the earth and heaven and then create a whole new earth and a new heavens.

What has the earth done for God to burn it up what has heavens done to be destroyed? NOTHING this passage is not meaning the literal earth and heaven as we would be led to believe,consider the passage Preachers use;

King James Bible
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

So here Peter says there was a old earth and old heavens by the world of God


Good News Translation
and it was also by water, the water of the flood, that the old world was destroyed.

Was the world DESTROYED? NO.was not the evil people who were destroyed and not the world or earth? what about the old heavens? were they destroyed?

New Living Translation
And by the same word, the present heavens and earth have been stored up for fire. They are being kept for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed.

The heaven that were then before the flood are the same heaven now the Sun ,Moon planets are the same ones Adam saw so the earth is the same one Noah walked on in fact after the flood he sat foot on the same earth.

So how is heavens used in scripture?

The Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, by M’Clintock and Strong, states: “Wherever the scene of a prophetic vision is laid, heaven signifies . . . the whole assembly of the ruling powers . . . being over and ruling the subjects, as the natural heaven stands over and rules the earth.

Ephesians 6:12
2 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

These HIGH PLACES are the ruling power


New International Version
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

There it is these are the" HEAVENS' are the ones that need to be destroyed or burned up

Ephesians 6:12
against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places

New King James Version
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

The apostle Peter compares the literal heavens and earth (2Pe 3:5) with the symbolic heavens and earth (2Pe 3:7). “The heavens” of verse 7 do not mean Jehovah’s own dwelling place, the place of his throne in the heavens. Jehovah’s heavens cannot be shaken. Neither is “the earth” in the same verse the literal planet earth, for Jehovah says that he has established the earth firmly.


New International Version
He built his sanctuary like the heights, like the earth that he established forever.

To establish the earth forever then go and burn it up goes against his establishing it in the first place.


Good News Translation
There he built his Temple like his home in heaven; he made it firm like the earth itself, secure for all time.

We read at 2 Peter 3:13: “There are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.

It means after the end of this evil world are destroyed there will in essence be a new society of people or new world or earth and new heavens as Christ from heaven will be ruling over the new earth

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I have multiple speculations about the book of Revelation. ...

Whenever I hear such things a vision comes to me ...

... that of a rabbit hole.​

 

[sun rise]

I believe the image is nice but is he called faithful and true? And did he precede the Book of Rev.?

To me, "faithful and true" are names of God in human form, the Word made flesh. In the East, the rider of the white horse is God in human form albeit with another name.

In the visions of both, the white horse rider comes to bring in what might be called the "God made world" replacing the "man made world".

Of course there are claims of exclusivity and a thousand differences in theology, but to me the essence is the same.

 

[csa_ap_hill]

I believe at least the first two are in error. So you going to tell me that "a new heaven and a new earth" occurred in the past and there are many other things a well.

No! where do you get that? Nothing I said has nothing to do with the new heaven and new earth. I'm negating anything that says NERO was the Beast or the Antichrist. We here now have to contend with the Beast Govt systems of the world and their Mark vs the seal of God. After people chose to worship/obey the beast or Govt. per what I said about masks and vaccines maybe since they are being used as that, but God is of course on his timing so we could still see a few more 2020s to allow all the crap that has to be done get done, then whatever happens after that then the resurrection and new heaven and new earth. None of that has happened yet. All that with Nero could have been a literal happening of the mark of the beast but the timing was wrong and most of the world didn't even know anything about a mark or beast yet, so wouldn't have had a chance to chose so it couldn't be. Same with Hitler who did mark the Jews, but yet again no internet and still some countries not knowing much or anything about Christ or the mark so...
Now all that said, could be yet another possible attempt to deceive people on the Far lefts sides around the world with this coronavirus crap, with mask mandates by Governors or other rulers around the world with in some and maybe even here forced or very coerced attempts to make people take these vaccines. I'm wrong no loss but some disappointment like miller in the 1840s, but I'm right and people keep looking for sings they want like on TV and movies, Left behind kind of crap or a literal one man that comes to power to rule the world makes world peace then turns on the world, and then starts killing all the worlds Jews Christians etc... then in the Middle East, starts some war... and miss out then lose their souls... The bible makes it plain it's not the Middle East and Europe only and everyone else can just sit by, no, the whole world is involved. (Not just Italy/the Pope but that is still part but more part of the false prophet,) or Israel the country. We all are as it says with Nations, People's, tongues, and Multitudes. So no the new heaven and New hasn't came or went yet. Notice what I did say about where's my immortality statement. If I thought that I wouldn't have negated the NERO theory. Plus look at it this way Satan is the copycat, his kingdom that mimics God's has to come first and in full, and while it's close and has made large strides in that direction some hasn't happened yet. As in first seek ye the kingdom then compare that with Satan's Copycat and Gods promises etc...

 

[csa_ap_hill]

To me, "faithful and true" are names of God in human form, the Word made flesh. In the East, the rider of the white horse is God in human form albeit with another name.

In the visions of both, the white horse rider comes to bring in what might be called the "God made world" replacing the "man made world".

Of course there are claims of exclusivity and a thousand differences in theology, but to me the essence is the same.

Has anyone said that the white horse rider is Satan with his false teachings to conquer? If not I'd look to that more than it's God yet... it can't be for there is another rider but that's not until way down in Revelations 17-19 I think or 18. That's the one who we are to look for not the copycat. but.... The opening of the seals are judgements as in all the other three horses, and riders, and the death, and disease, they bring. Then the Trumpets, the vials then his coming. If the white horse was him there then no need for a mark of the beast, and all the other plagues, for he'd already be here. And no to the through men crap just look at how men rule now it's all garbage. No Daniel 2 vs 44 makes it clear he will leave the kingdom to other people, as in men ruling over each other no more..
That hasn't happened so until then no!