RF Every day sexism

[Sunstone]

I think there's a noticeable tendency in our societies to downplay or outright dismiss the sexual harassment of males when it's perpetrated by females, especially attractive females.

I suspect the characterization of males as sexual locomotives on a single track doesn't help.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I think there's a noticeable tendency in our societies to downplay or outright dismiss the sexual harassment of males when it's perpetrated by females, especially attractive females.

I suspect the characterization of males as sexual locomotives on a single track doesn't help.

I agree, but I think the sexual harassment of women is downplayed as well.

 

[Sunstone]

I agree, but I think the sexual harassment of women is downplayed as well.

I agree with you there, also. I've so often heard, "Just get over it!", or the like, said to both men and women.

I actually think it's often well intended advice, because we do need to eventually get over so much that happens to us in this world. There's no other way of dealing with so many things.

But, well intended or not, I've too often heard it prematurely offered to people who, it seemed to me, were still working through the early and all but absolutely necessary stages of coming to grips with what had happened to them.

I also don't like that sort of advice in so far as it seems to imply there is nothing at all that can be done about things. That's too often the case, but not always the case.

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree, but I think the sexual harassment of women is downplayed as well.

Perhaps the most unnoticed is sexism by men towards men (eg, military mentality),
& by women towards women (enforcing arcane & strict fashion). People is a mess.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I agree with you there, also. I've so often heard, "Just get over it!", or the like, said to both men and women.

I actually think it's often well intended advice, because we do need to eventually "get over" so much that happens to us in this world. There's no other way of dealing with so many things.

But, well intended or not, I've too often heard it prematurely offered to people who, it seemed to me, were still working through the early and all but absolutely necessary stages of coming to grips with what had happened to them.

I also don't like that sort of advice in so far as it seems to imply there is nothing at all that can be done about things. That's too often the case, but not always the case.

Yeah and also trying to argue that it wasn't harassment and perfectly healthy, or you were wearing the wrong thing, or you are just too irresistible, or it's just a compliment, or it was just a joke, or well she ignored me so she deserved it, or if someone is offended that is their problem

 

[Sunstone]

I agree, but I think the sexual harassment of women is downplayed as well.

Although I do agree with you, I would be willing to bet my last dollar that nowadays most women will have an easier time finding useful advice and support from others when they've been sexually harassed than men will. But I'm not saying women typically get enough good advice and support. I still think a lot of work needs to be done. Yet I think the tendency is to very readily dismiss any issues men have with being sexually harassed, and to encourage them to deal with it alone and in silence, if at all.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Although I do agree with you, I would be willing to bet my last dollar that nowadays most women will have an easier time finding useful advice and support from others when they've been sexually harassed than men will. But I'm not saying women typically get enough good advice and support. I still think a lot of work needs to be done. Yet I think the tendency is to very readily dismiss any issues men have with being sexually harassed, and to encourage them to deal with it alone and in silence, if at all.

Although we may get some support like a webpage out there, or from some women, we receive conflicting messages. I dealt with it alone as well, but because I knew my girlfriends had the same experiences, it became normal for us, we would joke about going to certain areas and not being able to walk 20 secs from the train station without getting at least beeped at. But that is all it was a joke and then moving on.

I especially find it inappropriate that men have come to this thread to say they would like to be spoken to that way, we don't want to here that mess when retelling our experiences.

I think when men are sexually harassed there is this assumption that they should like it and take it as a compliment (oh wait...) it doesn't help when you have men promoting the same thing by saying "I wished this happened to me!"

 

[Sunstone]

Although we may get some support like a webpage out there, or from some women, we receive conflicting messages. I dealt with it alone as well, but because I knew my girlfriends had the same experiences, it became normal for us, we would joke about going to certain areas and not being able to walk 20 secs from the train station without getting at least beeped at. But that is all it was a joke and then moving on.

I'm genuinely sorry you found so little support. I have great hopes the consciousness raising efforts people are making will pay off.

I especially find it inappropriate that men have come to this thread to say they would like to be spoken to that way, we don't want to here that mess when retelling our experiences.

Yeah, it's callous. Although probably not intended as such. Again, consciousness raising.

I think when men are sexually harassed there is this assumption that they should like it and take it as a compliment (oh wait...) it doesn't help when you have men promoting the same thing by saying "I wished this happened to me!"

A large part of the problem, I think, is that so many men might be confused by sexual harassment. There could be a number of reasons for that, but one that especially interests me is this: Men really don't have a language for it. Not an empowering language for it.

Put differently, the authors, poets, song-writers, and so forth -- the people who normally create verbal ways in which they and others can then think about things -- those fools have been slacking when it comes to providing us men with the words in which to express any negative feelings we might have upon being sexually harassed.

I'll offer a painfully long example: Perhaps the most common way a woman might sexually harass a man is usually termed, "teasing", or "leading him on". But just how insipid can you frickin' get!

Any callous idiot will hear those terms and, being both callous and an idiot, will immediately jump all over their ambiguity. "Maybe she really wanted you." "Maybe you should have called her 'bluff'. What if it wasn't a real bluff?" "Maybe you're reading too much into it." "Sounds more like she was merely flirting with you than anything else."

The truth is, if you're reasonably experienced, then you probably know the difference between being "led on" by someone who is merely trying to notch you up as another emotional victory for her, and being flirted with by someone who hopes you will turn out to be worth her effort. Yet, there are almost no words for the difference.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I'm genuinely sorry you found so little support. I have great hopes the consciousness raising efforts people are making will pay off.



Yeah, it's callous. Although probably not intended as such. Again, consciousness raising.



A large part of the problem, I think, is that so many men might be confused by sexual harassment. There could be a number of reasons for that, but one that especially interests me is this: Men really don't have a language for it. Not an empowering language for it.

Put differently, the authors, poets, song-writers, and so forth -- the people who normally create verbal ways in which they and others can then think about things -- those fools have been slacking when it comes to providing us men with the words in which to express any negative feelings we might have upon being sexually harassed.

I'll offer a painfully long example: Perhaps the most common way a woman might sexually harass a man is usually termed, "teasing", or "leading him on". But just how insipid can you frickin' get!

Any callous idiot will hear those terms and, being both callous and an idiot, will immediately jump all over their ambiguity. "Maybe she really wanted you." "Maybe you should have called her 'bluff'. What if it wasn't a real bluff?" "Maybe you're reading too much into it." "Sounds more like she was merely flirting with you than anything else."

The truth is, if you're reasonably experienced, then you probably know the difference between being "led on" by someone who is merely trying to notch you up as another emotional victory for her, and being flirted with by someone who hopes you will turn out to be worth her effort. Yet, there are almost no words for the difference.

Wouldn't the words be "she sexually harassed me?" I wouldn't say a woman sexually harassing a man was teasing or leading them on, who says that? I'm confused

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I have actually been harassed by a girl before in high school, who used to grab my boobs, now I didn't actually mind girls touching my boobs in high school but she was too aggressive with it, as in she wouldn't stop until she managed to grab my boobs.

 

[Revoltingest]

I have actually been harassed by a girl before in high school, who used to grab my boobs, now I didn't actually mind girls touching my boobs in high school but she was too aggressive with it, as in she wouldn't stop until she managed to grab my boobs.

The UK must be a very different place from Revoltingistan.
I'm glad I live here. You'd like it too...once you get used to it.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

The UK must be a very different place from Revoltingistan.
I'm glad I live here. You'd like it too...once you get used to it.

What's Revoltingistan like?

 

[Sunstone]

Wouldn't the words be "she sexually harassed me?" I wouldn't say a woman sexually harassing a man was teasing or leading them on, who says that? I'm confused

I think part of the problem is that most people -- and perhaps especially men -- are taught to dismiss "teasing" and "being led on" as something less than sexual harassment. But what else to call it? So far as I've seen, It can amount to the psychological and emotional equivalent of butt grabbing. At least, the victim of it can come away blaming themselves, feeling humiliated, questioning their worth, etc.

This happened to a friend: I suppose he was targeted by the girls because they thought him ridiculous in a way. That is, he was in his mid-twenties at the time and still just as shy, socially awkward, and sexually inexperienced as he had been in his teens. I can imagine for those and other reasons, the girls thought it would be good fun to humiliate him. Especially after he one day made the mistake of hinting that he was interested in one of them. How totally pretentious of him!

So, the girls played out an elaborate prank. Over a couple weeks, they encouraged him to think that the girl he was interested in was just as interested in him -- but because her brother disliked him, she was secret about her interest.

They urged him to anonymously send her expensive flowers and candy, which he foolishly consented to. Then they assured him she was so pleased with the gifts and attention that he should finally drop all anonymity and ask her out.

When he did, the girl he was now very hopeful about, responded as you might imagine. She laughed in his face, told him what a dog he was, said he must be full of himself to think she'd be interested in him, and ran to tell her friends all about it.

It happened at the workplace they all shared, and so he overheard the all girls laughing at him that day, but he couldn't leave for fear of losing his job.

He called me that night, and he wasn't in a very pretty shape.

If you don't want to call that sexual harassment, maybe you can find a way to call it emotional harassment. To me, the aftereffects can be much the same. Humiliation, feelings of worthlessness, self-blame, etc.

 

[Revoltingest]

What's Revoltingistan like?

There's a lot more bacon, & a lot less rude, crude & abusive sexual behavior.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I think part of the problem is that most people -- and perhaps especially men -- are taught to dismiss "teasing" and "being led on" as something less than sexual harassment. But what else to call it? So far as I've seen, It can amount to the psychological and emotional equivalent of butt grabbing. At least, the victim of it can come away blaming themselves, feeling humiliated, questioning their worth, etc.

This happened to a friend: I suppose he was targeted by the girls because they thought him ridiculous in a way. That is, he was in his mid-twenties at the time and still just as shy, socially awkward, and sexually inexperienced as he had been in his teens. I can imagine for those and other reasons, the girls thought it would be good fun to humiliate him. Especially after he one day made the mistake of hinting that he was interested in one of them. How totally pretentious of him!

So, the girls played out an elaborate prank. Over a couple weeks, they encouraged him to think that the girl he was interested in was just as interested in him -- but because her brother disliked him, she was secret about her interest.

They urged him to anonymously send her expensive flowers and candy, which he foolishly consented to. Then they assured him she was so pleased with the gifts and attention that he should finally drop all anonymity and ask her out.

When he did, the girl he was now very hopeful about, responded as you might imagine. She laughed in his face, told him what a dog he was, said he must be full of himself to think she'd be interested in him, and ran to tell her friends all about it.

It happened at the workplace they all shared, and so he overheard the all girls laughing at him that day, but he couldn't leave for fear of losing his job.

He called me that night, and he wasn't in a very pretty shape.

If you don't want to call that sexual harassment, maybe you can find a way to call it emotional harassment. To me, the aftereffects can be much the same. Humiliation, feelings of worthlessness, self-blame, etc.

I think I would call that bullying not sexual harassment. I would say the after effects are similar yes but I don't know if I would exactly put them in the same category.
Also that was just really dumb, why would you do that? Move on from highschool people!

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

There's a lot more bacon, & a lot less rude, crude & abusive sexual behavior.

I'm vegetarian

 

[Sunstone]

I think I would call that bullying not sexual harassment. I would say the after effects are similar yes but I don't know if I would exactly put them in the same category.

You have a right to your own terms, of course. I'd call it a number of things, including sexual harassment -- if for no other reason, but to note how the girl's behavior exploited his sexual feelings.

I think we might have a deeper disagreement over whether to put it in the same category as the sexual harassment of females. I myself would, at least in so far as it's ever possible to compare one person's feelings with another person's feelings.

The thing about it, though, is most men are thoroughly trained to simply dismiss these events. I think some men would even be embarrassed to admit such things had ever happened to them, for fear they'd be thought emotionally weak, among other things.

Also that was just really dumb, why would you do that? Move on from highschool people!

Dumb, surely. But also, to my mind, inexcusably cruel. The girls put quite a calculated effort into it, I suspect. They could have called it off at any time during those two weeks, but they didn't.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Rap was actually super common that weekend jamming around the camp fire. The drunk girl could freestyle and my bro knew all the words to the Humpty dance.

(Welcome back!)

 

[ryobi]

I was listening to the radio the other day when the female Disk Jockey came on and said there was a study that found women are on average smarter than men. Then she said, "they didn't need to do a study. Everyone already knows women are smarter than men."

 

[Sunstone]

This happened to a friend: I suppose he was targeted by the girls because they thought him ridiculous in a way. That is, he was in his mid-twenties at the time and still just as shy, socially awkward, and sexually inexperienced as he had been in his teens. I can imagine for those and other reasons, the girls thought it would be good fun to humiliate him. Especially after he one day made the mistake of hinting that he was interested in one of them. How totally pretentious of him!

So, the girls played out an elaborate prank. Over a couple weeks, they encouraged him to think that the girl he was interested in was just as interested in him -- but because her brother disliked him, she was secret about her interest.

They urged him to anonymously send her expensive flowers and candy, which he foolishly consented to. Then they assured him she was so pleased with the gifts and attention that he should finally drop all anonymity and ask her out.

When he did, the girl he was now very hopeful about, responded as you might imagine. She laughed in his face, told him what a dog he was, said he must be full of himself to think she'd be interested in him, and ran to tell her friends all about it.

It happened at the workplace they all shared, and so he overheard the all girls laughing at him that day, but he couldn't leave for fear of losing his job.

He called me that night, and he wasn't in a very pretty shape.

If you don't want to call that sexual harassment, maybe you can find a way to call it emotional harassment. To me, the aftereffects can be much the same. Humiliation, feelings of worthlessness, self-blame, etc.

I'm making this post on the slight chance that anyone -- male or female -- might still be making an effort -- an open-minded effort -- to understand how deeply my friend felt after what the girl's pulled on him.

My experience is admittedly limited, but most men (and I do indeed mean most) fear being rejected by a woman they are attracted to more than they fear being alone.

If I had a dollar for each time some man I've known has refused to ask out a woman because he couldn't make himself face the acute misery of rejection, I could pay a month's rent. And if I had ten dollars for each time some man I've known has spent his entire single's life asking out only women he wouldn't too terribly mind being rejected by, instead of the women he really wants to ask out, I could pay the following month's rent.

I believe that in all likelihood, rejection is the typical male's most powerfully entrenched sexual fear. Men have now and then sought my advice through-out my adult life, and that's their number one issue, so far as I can recall.

So, perhaps you can partly imagine what it could be like for a man -- especially a relatively inexperienced man -- to encounter, not mere rejection, but rejection pointedly aimed at humiliating him, by a woman he longs will think well of him.

My apologies to anyone who read this and didn't want to hear it.