godnotgod
Thou art That
No, it is quoting something that clearly states my exact point, which you fail to understand simply because you are still looking at the issue via the thinking mind, while what is being described is beyond the thinking mind.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Richard Dawkins Facepalms at Deepak Chopra
- Thread starter Debater Slayer
- Start date
No, it is quoting something that clearly states my exact point, which you fail to understand simply because you are still looking at the issue via the thinking mind, while what is being described is beyond the thinking mind.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
Go back to your teachings and I'll go back to my sacred place amongst the trees. The teachings are only there for those who fail to understand the greatest teacher of all...nature itself.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Ah, you begin and end in duality, not realizing that the true teachings simply point to nature itself. Good fortune to you on the rest of your journey.
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
I really never cared much for learning second hand anyways. I go straight to The Teacher which is nature itself...The Source.
godnotgod
Thou art That
You say that nature is your teacher, yet deny that the universe is conscious. How does that work?
Shad
Veteran Member
You are quoting out of context since the book provides context which is directly opposed to your own. You also oppose it since you dismiss Christianity. Try again.
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
Last edited:
godnotgod
Thou art That
So the universe is an object of your observation in an 'observer/observed' relationship? IOW, you see yourself as a conscious interactive agent with an unconsious universe? I thought you just got through telling me how there is no separation between man and the universe.
Why is it that you disallow consciousness to that which is obviously far greater than you while claiming it for yourself? You're not doing the universe; it's doing you. The universe, I am afraid, is far more than merely 'interactive'; it contains and supports you in your entirety, totally inside and out. But, of course, only YOU can be conscious. Is that correct?
Last edited:
godnotgod
Thou art That
Excuse me. Cusa was a mystic Christian:
Nicholas of Cusa was noted for his deeply mystical writings about Christianity, particularly on the possibility of knowing God with the divine human mind — not possible through mere human means* — via "learned ignorance".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_of_Cusa
I dismiss dogma and deliberate fabrication; not Christianity perse.
* 'mere human means': ie: Reason
*****
A reviewer writes of Cusa:
Cusa's mysticism is deeply speculative and intellectual, perhaps more so than any other Christian mystic except Eckhart and Eriugena. At the heart of Cusa's mysticism is God's absolute infinity, which renders God utterly and entirely incomprehensible to the human mind. Because incomprehensibility is not merely due to a defect of the human mind but is an attribute of God himself, Cusa rigorously adopts a strongly apophatic approach to God, developed along lines already laid out by Dionysius the Aeropagite, Eckhart, and Scotus Eriugena.
In the Learned Ignorance Cusa likens God to the 'absolute maximum' who while ineffable, contains the fullness of being and reality. The absolute maximum is God's essence as it is in itself, what philosophers might now call the Absolute. In the absolute maximum, which is basically God's infinite nature, all coincidences and opposites merge into one basic unity. In other words, the many become the one and the one becomes the many in God's plenitude of being.
http://www.amazon.com/Nicholas-Cusa...783340&sr=8-1&keywords=cusa+selected+writings
This merging of opposites into One is at the heart of the mystical experience, this idea also reflected in Eastern wisdom.
Last edited:
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
The universe is not greater than me, nor is it greater than you. There is no lesser or greater, no enlightened ones versus unenlightened ones. All is great, All is enlightened, but not all realize that fact. All is doing, All is interacting.
There is no separation between man and the universe, All is One. Man is interactive just like the universe is interactive, but man evolved in such a way that man can interact in more unique, complex ways. I dislike the term consciousness for precisely the fact that due to its vague definition, the door is left wide open for mystical interpretations. Thus I reject the term consciousness. There is no consciousness, there is only interaction. The universe is an infinite, unbreakable chain and we are all links on that chain. Every link is inseparable and the bond which holds that chain together represents those vital and ever-present interactions. The problem is that most people see themselves as separate, individual links, but there are no separate links, there is only One Chain. Man is just a somewhat more colorful link on that Chain.
Last edited:
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
That is part of the problem... You see the universe as something far greater than yourself. You need to see the universe within yourself.
godnotgod
Thou art That
While it is that, just as water is both drop and vast ocean, you are fully supported by something greater than yourself, both inside and out. You are only a microcosm of the universe, though still of the same nature of the universe, just as the wave is still the ocean. But it is the ocean doing the wave, the universe doing you, and not the other way round. In the sense that you are surrounded by, and contained within the universe at large, it is greater than you.
But if you see the universe within yourself, then it also is conscious. What you call 'interaction' cannot occur without consciousness. You seem to think it is an automatic mechanical sort of event, with particles randomly and blindly bumping into one another in a chemical stew, out of which the world emerges. I guess you even deny the world so manifested as possessing intelligence, which is also a result of dumb blind 'interaction' of things going bump in the night. I don't buy it.
Last edited:
godnotgod
Thou art That
If All is enlightened, then what is this 'interaction' all about? Enlightenment means that all is settled; all is as it should be.
Let all sharpness be blunted,
All tangles untied,
All glare tempered.
All dust smoothed.
This is called the mysterious leveling.
Tao te Ching, Ch 56
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
Likewise, what you call 'consciousness' cannot occur without interaction. There is no greater than or lesser than since every link in that chain is just as important, just as great as the next. Even something so small as a blade of grass or an ant is a vital link in that chain which is the universe. You can cut the grass or kill the ant, but you cannot destroy the energy that was the ant or the grass. The universe is not doing me, the universe is doing Itself. What am "I" other than the Ocean Itself. Consciousness, intelligence, even life are nothing more than interaction in varying degrees of complexity. Perhaps what you call "pure consciousness" and what I call "interaction", or what some call the "Unified Field", or what others might even call "God" are One and the Same. The same fundamental Reality.
"I am the light that shines over all things, I am everything. From me all came forth and to me all return. Split a piece of wood and I am there. Lift a stone and your will find me there."
The Gospel of Thomas
Shad
Veteran Member
I know who he is, Ive read his work. However you still quote-mine as he was talking about his views not your own. His reasons are completely different than your own and based on the dogma you dismissed
Lie the sort Nicolas require for his arguments which is standard Christian dogma.
Cusa's mysticism is deeply speculative and intellectual, perhaps more so than any other Christian mystic except Eckhart and Eriugena. At the heart of Cusa's mysticism is God's absolute infinity, which renders God utterly and entirely incomprehensible to the human mind. Because incomprehensibility is not merely due to a defect of the human mind but is an attribute of God himself, Cusa rigorously adopts a strongly apophatic approach to God, developed along lines already laid out by Dionysius the Aeropagite, Eckhart, and Scotus Eriugena.
In the Learned Ignorance Cusa likens God to the 'absolute maximum' who while ineffable, contains the fullness of being and reality. The absolute maximum is God's essence as it is in itself, what philosophers might now call the Absolute. In the absolute maximum, which is basically God's infinite nature, all coincidences and opposites merge into one basic unity. In other words, the many become the one and the one becomes the many in God's plenitude of being.
http://www.amazon.com/Nicholas-Cusa-Selected-Spiritual-Spirituality/dp/0809136988
This merging of opposites into One is at the heart of the mystical experience, this idea also reflected in Eastern wisdom.
A review from Amazon.com... seriously? That is hilarious if you think a review from a nobody on Amazon is impressive. Also did you miss the part in the review that said this "While perhaps Cusa's vision may not be appropriate for today's universe" So your same review also says his view is untenable today. Read what you link....
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
It means that the mind is settled. Stop thinking about it and let the universe do the doing. That is "doing without doing". Perhaps in other words that can be "interacting without interacting", jut letting things happen naturally.
Last edited:
godnotgod
Thou art That
No. It means that there is no mind to settle. There is no mind that is enlightened; there is only Enlightenment itself. 'Mind' is a self-created principle; an illusion.
Ah, so you ARE a total action of the universe.
I see. So there is the appearance of 'interacting', without actually 'interacting'. It's what is called 'maya' and 'lila'.
godnotgod
Thou art That
That Reason must be vanquished for divine union to be achieved is not Christian dogma; it is a description of the mystical experience. Dogma is part of the orthodox Christian belief system. But because you are an armchair philosopher, you don't know the difference.
No, that is not in the review I linked. Something is wrong with the link, so use the one below.
However, what I am specifically referring to, the transcendence of the thinking mind, is outside of Time and Space, so what was true then is also true now.
I am not responding to a nobody from amazon.com; I am responding to the content of the review. And I didn't post it because it is impressive, but because it is true: Cusa was a mystic.
http://www.amazon.com/Nicholas-Cusa...783340&sr=8-1&keywords=cusa+selected+writings
Last edited:
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
The same as consciousness. Mind (thinking, sensing, feeling) is interaction.