Richard Dawkins Facepalms at Deepak Chopra

[Runewolf1973]

In the Cave Allegory, a metaphorical claim is made of a Sun existing topside, for which no factual evidence exists, other than that the other prisoners must go see for themselves to validate the claim. 'Seeing' the Sun is immediate, and comes prior to thinking about it. The same is true of the claim of the presence of Pure Consciousness, but as Osho tried to explain, a state of 'no-mind' must first come about. Universal Consciousness is not apparent nor provable to the thinking mind. 'Thinking' is a property of limited mind, not that of universal consciousness.

The claim is only 'bold' to the mind that cannot understand the claim, just as Quantum Physics was (and continues to be) bold and paradoxical to modern minds, though they are steeped in Reason, Logic, and Analysis.

The problem is not that brains are primitive or that the universe is irrational. It is that the intellect cannot yield the desired outcome. The universe is not rationally-based, and so is neither rational, nor irrational. It's understanding comes via a non-rational approach, while factual knowledge still comes via Reason, Logic, and Analysis.

re: 'created': both science and religion see a material universe as having been 'created', but cannot explain the source of the original material. You just stated, however, that the 'universe is composed of energy', and that it can neither be created or destroyed, which at least addresses the 'material' part of the claim. Are you now no longer a materialist, as previously claimed, and if you are now an 'energist', are you then saying that the universe is an eternally existing entity?

repeat: is energy a form of information?

I have always considered the universe to be eternally existing, but I don't consider it to be a conscious entity. What is an "energist"? It sounds rather corny and new-agey. I consider everything to be interactive and ever-changing. All energy/matter can be broken down into the four basic Fundamental Interactions. I believe those four interactions can be further broken down into a singular, all-encompassing force or interaction...a Unified Field. I believe this interactive field is the basis of all existence and it was never "created", it has always existed in some way. I believe that information is like a sequence of interactions which can be carried or stored by energy. What we call memory or thought, the way I see it, is a sequence of interactions stored by our brains. I reject any conclusions drawn about by the abandonment of reason.

 

[godnotgod]

I have always considered the universe to be eternally existing, but I don't consider it to be a conscious entity. What is an "energist"? It sounds rather corny and new-agey. I consider everything to be interactive and ever-changing. All energy/matter can be broken down into the four basic Fundamental Interactions. I believe those four interactions can be further broken down into a singular, all-encompassing force or interaction...a Unified Field. I believe this interactive field is the basis of all existence and it was never "created", it has always existed in some way. I believe that information is like a sequence of interactions which can be carried or stored by energy. What we call memory or thought, the way I see it, is a sequence of interactions stored by our brains. I reject any conclusions drawn about by the abandonment of reason.

You have just violated/abandoned Reason several times via your 'beliefs'. Shall we collectively call them 'The Doctrine of Interaction'?

 

[Runewolf1973]

You have just violated/abandoned Reason several times via your 'beliefs'. Shall we collectively call them 'The Doctrine of Interaction'?

How so? My beliefs are based on science, physics and logical interpretations of the universe. That everything interacts is a testable and proven FACT.

 

[godnotgod]

....information is like a sequence of interactions which can be carried or stored by energy. What we call memory or thought, the way I see it, is a sequence of interactions stored by our brains.

What is intelligence, and are you now using it to illustrate 'the way I see it'?

 

[godnotgod]

How so? My beliefs are based on science, physics and logical interpretations of the universe. That everything interacts is a testable and proven FACT.

Excuse me? Beliefs and interpretations, though based on 'science', are not facts.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Excuse me? Beliefs and interpretations, though based on 'science', are not facts.

That the universe is interactive is a fact, not a belief. That there is such thing as a Unified Field is speculation on my part. None of this involves abandoning reason.

 

[Runewolf1973]

What is intelligence, and are you now using it to illustrate 'the way I see it'?

A form of interaction. Yes I am using it to illustrate my views.

 

[godnotgod]

That the universe is interactive is a fact, not a belief. That there is such thing as a Unified Field is speculation on my part. None of this involves abandoning reason.

Interaction may be a fact, but the rest of what you said is conjecture. 'Based on the facts, I surmise that.....' is not proven fact. It is your belief system.

Higher Consciousness involves abandoning Reason, as an understanding of the nature of things cannot be arrived at via Reason.

So did you say that energy contains information, eg; photons.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Interaction may be a fact, but the rest of what you said is conjecture. 'Based on the facts, I surmise that.....' is not proven fact. It is your belief system.

Higher Consciousness involves abandoning Reason, as an understanding of the nature of things cannot be arrived at via Reason.

So did you say that energy contains information, eg; photons.

I am free to speculate based on observable facts. I never said that the existence of the Unified Field was fact. I never said that my ideas regarding information or memory were fact. I said that interaction is fact. Stop twisting around what I have to say. Higher consciousness is not a proven fact and that you try to present it as some ultimate fact or truth is complete nonsense. Jeeze...and here I thought the Jehova's Witnesses were bad at pushing their religious nonsense.

I speculate that information (interactive sequencing) is carried or stored by energy or within energetic fields.

 

[godnotgod]

I am free to speculate based on observable facts. I never said that the existence of the Unified Field was fact. I never said that my ideas regarding information or memory were fact. I said that interaction is fact. Stop twisting around what I have to say. Higher consciousness is not a proven fact and that you try to present it as some ultimate fact or truth is complete nonsense. Jeeze...and here I thought the Jehova's Witnesses were bad at pushing their religious nonsense.

I speculate that information (interactive sequencing) is carried or stored by energy or within energetic fields.

I'm just making the point that your ideas are just 'your ideas'.

It is not necessary or possible to demonstrate the experience of HC as fact; it is beyond fact and belief, as it's reference is Reality itself. Being based on Reality itself, it is doctrineless, unlike the doctrines which JW try to foist.

Ideas about Reality via Reason are filtered through the mind; HC is a direct experience of Reality in consciousness, not mind.

The Universe is an ultimate fact as it is Absolute. There is no 'other' to which it can be compared. HC simply mirrors that which the Universe is, without doctrine, without belief, without idea or theory.

Intelligence is required to process information, whether it be direct, or pre-programmed. Intelligence means that consciousness is present.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I'm just making the point that your ideas are just 'your ideas'.

It is not necessary or possible to demonstrate the experience of HC as fact; it is beyond fact and belief, as it's reference is Reality itself. Being based on Reality itself, it is doctrineless, unlike the doctrines which JW try to foist.

The Universe is an ultimate fact as it is Absolute. There is no 'other' to which it can be compared. HC simply mirrors that which the Universe is, without doctrine, without belief, without idea or theory.

Intelligence is required to process information, whether it be direct, or pre-programmed. Intelligence means that consciousness is present.

Of course my ideas are just my ideas, it was unnecessary to point that out. That the universe exists is fact. That the universe is Absolute is speculation since it is also possible there are multiple universes such as ours. There is no "other" universe that we can compare it to, but that doesn't mean there aren't other universes. Reality is different for everyone. Yours is not the only reality. Reality is fleeting. What is real at this present moment has already changed and therefore is no longer "real" because it is no longer the same as it once was. In a way, because of that continual change, I would say that reality itself is an illusion. Intelligence...consciousness...information...it does not matter. It is all intertaction.

 

[godnotgod]

Of course my ideas are just my ideas, it was unnecessary to point that out. That the universe exists is fact. That the universe is Absolute is speculation since it is also possible there are multiple universes such as ours. There is no "other" universe that we can compare it to, but that doesn't mean there aren't other universes. Reality is different for everyone. Yours is not the only reality. Reality is fleeting. What is real at this present moment has already changed and therefore is no longer "real" because it is no longer the same as it once was. In a way, because of that continual change, I would say that reality itself is an illusion. Intelligence...consciousness...information...it does not matter. It is all intertaction.

No, it is necessary to point out that they are just your ideas.

That the universe exists is not fact. It may be a grand illusion that only seemingly exists.

By 'universe' I mean the following:

The Universe is all of time and space and its contents. The Universe includes planets, stars, galaxies, the contents of intergalactic space, the smallest subatomic particles, and all matter and energy. The observable universe is about 28 billion parsecs (91 billion light-years) in diameter at the present time.[2] The size of the whole Universe is not known and may be infinite.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe

To this definition I also include all multi-universes, IOW, the totality of all that is, and the totality of all that is, is The Absolute, because there is no 'other' to limit it.

I am not talking about personal views of reality; I am talking about the Ultimate Reality, which never changes, and which is the same everywhere. Ultimate Reality cannot be fleeting, since it is not in Time and Space. Ultimate Reality is the only true Reality; all else is an illusion. Again, you are focusing on the foreground of existence, that which comes and goes. Ultimate Reality does not come and therefore does not go. What you are calling 'reality' is maya.

For 'interaction' and the processing of information to occur, there must be intelligence. The entire Universe is processing information, and is therefore, intelligent. Your ego allows your person intelligence, but not to that which is greater than you and from which you emerged, which sustains you, and to which you will return.

 

[Runewolf1973]

No, it is necessary to point out that they are just your ideas.

That the universe exists is not fact. It may be a grand illusion that only seemingly exists.

By 'universe' I mean the following:

The Universe is all of time and space and its contents. The Universe includes planets, stars, galaxies, the contents of intergalactic space, the smallest subatomic particles, and all matter and energy. The observable universe is about 28 billion parsecs (91 billion light-years) in diameter at the present time.[2] The size of the whole Universe is not known and may be infinite.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe

To this definition I also include all multi-universes, IOW, the totality of all that is, and the totality of all that is, is The Absolute, because there is no 'other' to limit it.

I am not talking about personal views of reality; I am talking about the Ultimate Reality, which never changes, and which is the same everywhere. Ultimate Reality cannot be fleeting, since it is not in Time and Space. Ultimate Reality is the only true Reality; all else is an illusion. Again, you are focusing on the foreground of existence, that which comes and goes. Ultimate Reality does not come and therefore does not go. What you are calling 'reality' is maya.

For 'interaction' and the processing of information to occur, there must be intelligence. The entire Universe is processing information, and is therefore, intelligent. Your ego allows your person intelligence, but not to that which is greater than you and from which you emerged, which sustains you, and to which you will return.

Evidence? Where is the evidence, or are you just going to continue to co-out by saying it is beyond logic and reason and therefore beyond evidence?

 

[godnotgod]

That the universe exists is fact.

It exists as what?

“Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real” – Niels Bohr

 

[godnotgod]

Evidence? Where is the evidence, or are you just going to continue to co-out by saying it is beyond logic and reason and therefore beyond evidence?

I am not the one making the claim for the universe as something existing. What evidence is there to that effect? That you can measure it, feel it, taste it, hear it, smell it, see it? All of that is the result of perceptual reality, which cannot be depended upon. Perceptual reality is to see the outcome; the surface. The realization of Ultimate Reality is to get to the very heart of the matter.

“The hypothesis of modern science starts from matter as the basic reality, considering space to be an extension of the void. The phenomenon of creation of stable cosmic matter, therefore, goes beyond the scope of present science. The theory also neither pinpoints the source of cosmic energy that resides in the structure of matter, nor can it explain the cause of material properties that are experienced with the behavior of matter. These are, in brief, the limitations of modern scientific theories at the most basic level of the physical phenomena of nature. When a scientific theory cannot cope with the question of the very origin of the universal matter and energy, how could it ever grasp and explain the phenomenon of consciousness which is evident in living beings?” – Paramahamsa Tewari

http://www.collective-evolution.com...usness-can-alter-our-physical-material-world/

 

[Rick O'Shez]

That the universe is Absolute is speculation since it is also possible there are multiple universes such as ours. There is no "other" universe that we can compare it to, but that doesn't mean there aren't other universes. Reality is different for everyone. Yours is not the only reality. Reality is fleeting.

There is apparently growing support for the idea of multi-verses. It's mind boggling stuff, particularly the quantum multi-verse where reality is continually splitting as we make choices. Another possibility is that there are an infinite number of universes "surrounding" our one, some of which will be very similar to ours, some completely different. Or our universe is just one small bubble in something infinitely large. And there is growing support for the idea of infinite space, which would mean our observable universe ( approx. 90 billion light years in diameter ) is just a tiny fraction of what is "out there".

Pseudo-spiritual pronouncements about "Ultimate Reality" seem pointless and shallow against this background.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The realization of universal consciousness does not come about via thinking; it is beyond the thinking mind.

Anyone can build a religious belief structure around a subjective experience. We see what we want to see, and interpret our experience in accordance with our assumptions.
The underling tendency here is reification. Reify consciousness, reify the non-thinking mind, reify the universe. It all looks like a convoluted substitute for God, the need to believe in something bigger.

These are interesting ideas to play around with, but let's not take ourselves too seriously and start preaching. Let's not reify our own opinions!

 

[godnotgod]

Anyone can build a religious belief structure around a subjective experience. We see what we want to see, and interpret our experience in accordance with our assumptions.
The underling tendency here is reification. Reify consciousness, reify the non-thinking mind, reify the universe. It's all just a convoluted substitute for God.

While what you are saying is indeed very commonly true, I am not referring to a subjective experience that amounts to a personal view; I am referring to an experience beyond all that is personal; it is an impersonal view, and that is why it is universal in nature. It does not pertain to a unique self-view.

We all have a tendency to attach to consciousness as 'my consciousness', when there is no 'I' to be found in reality. What you see via consciousness and what I see is via the same consciousness, but is not the same view, because mind sculpts consciousness into a personal view we attach to as 'mine'. This is to say that each ocean wave is different than all other waves, but all are made of the same universal substance: water. The consciousness you are calling 'mine' is not yours. It is the consciousness of the Universe, looking at itself through your eyes. That it is 'my' consciousness is purely illusory.

 

[godnotgod]

There is apparently growing support for the idea of multi-verses. It's mind boggling stuff, particularly the quantum multi-verse where reality is continually splitting as we make choices. Another possibility is that there are an infinite number of universes "surrounding" our one, some of which will be very similar to ours, some completely different. Or our universe is just one small bubble in something infinitely large. And there is growing support for the idea of infinite space, which would mean our observable universe ( approx. 90 billion light years in diameter ) is just a tiny fraction of what is "out there".

Pseudo-spiritual pronouncements about "Ultimate Reality" seem pointless and shallow against this background.

The background that is The Universe (meaning Everything, including all multi-verses) is precisely Ultimate Reality. There is not 'universe' over here, and 'Ultimate Reality' over there. That is why the universe is called 'The Uni-verse'.

"The Universe is The Absolute as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"

Cocksure pronouncements about the Universe, which appeal to authority, without the understanding that it is none other than Ultimate Reality, is ignorant and divisive.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

"The Universe is The Absolute as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"
Cocksure pronouncements about the Universe, which appeal to authority, without the understanding that it is none other than Ultimate Reality, is ignorant and divisive.

Can't you see that most of your assertions in this thread are none other than "cocksure pronouncements"? You take yourself much too seriously, and are you clearly much more interesting in preaching than having a genuine discussion.
It's the same old stuff, hollow spiritual cliches, new-age jargon, pseudo-science and point scoring, all a big ego-trip. Well, good luck with that!