Richard Dawkins Facepalms at Deepak Chopra

[godnotgod]

The mystical view is that of unlimited consciousness, transcendent of Reason, which is a limited view of the limited mind.

How can you ever really know definitively that consciousness is unlimited?[/QUOTE]

Because there is nothing that limits it.

The mystical view is still just another view.[/QUOTE]

No, it is not. It is not a personal view. It is transcendent of personal, or self-view.

"There are two kinds of knowledge and two types of views. One consists of beliefs, opinions, conjectures - having a idea of something. It's an intellectual grasping of concepts. This is how we commonly think of knowledge.
By their very nature, all our ideas and beliefs are frozen views - fragments of Reality, separated from the Whole. In other words, because we rely on what we think (conception), rather than what we see (perception), there's unrest in our mind....We habitually overlay our direct experience of Truth with thoughts - with beliefs and opinions and ideas.

There is a second type of view, which is not a concept or belief. It is no particular thing at all, but simply seeing Reality as it is, here and now, moment after moment. It's relying on bare attention - naked awareness of what is before conceptual thought arises. It's relying on what we actually experience rather than on what we think.

With the two types of views there are two kinds of minds. As human beings, we all have what we could call ordinary minds - the mind that you've always assumed you've had. It's a calculating mind, a discriminating mind, a fragmented mind. It's the mind of ordinary consciousness, the mind of self and other. We generally think of it as "my mind".

But there's another mind that is unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned. Unlike 'your mind', it's unbound, for there is nothing beyond it. To this Mind*, there is no 'other mind'.

This Mind is nothing other than the Whole. It's simply thus, the fabric of the world itself - the ongoing arising and falling away that are matter, energy, and events.

Speaking of this Mind, the great Chinese Zen master Huang Po said,

All buddhas and ordinary people are just One Mind.....
This Mind is beyond all measurements, names, oppositions:
this very being is It; as soon as you stir your mind
you turn away from It.

This Mind is self-evident - it's always switched on, so to speak. We can - and, in fact, we do - see It in every moment. If we would only refrain from stirring our minds, and let our conceptualizing die down, like the ripples on a pond after the stirring wind has ceased, we would realize - we would know - Mind directly."

Steve Hagen, Buddhism Plain & Simple

*Mind is capitalized to indicate that this view is that of The Absolute, a Universal Mind.

Mind, or Pure Consciousness, is called 'Metaphysic', by Alan Watts, who defines it as follows:

Metaphysic: The indefinable basis of knowledge. Metaphysical knowledge or 'realization' is an intense clarity of attention to that indefinable and immediate 'point' of knowledge which is always 'now', and from which all other knowledge is elaborated by reflective thought. A consciousness of 'life' in which the mind is not trying to grasp or define what it knows.



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[godnotgod]

The mystical view is that of unlimited consciousness.

You still haven't explained how consciousness can be unlimited when consciousness is limited by the senses.[/QUOTE]

Consciousness is already in place prior to the senses. Only ordinary consciousness is limited by the senses. Ordinary consciousness is conditioned awareness. Higher Consciousness is unconditioned awareness, freed of the limitations of the senses. That is why it is associated with spiritual freedom.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The mystical view is still just another view.

Indeed. You could talk about altered states of consciousness in meditation for example, but claiming these as any more than altered states of mind is tenuous, and such assumptions are usually more to do with religious belief than the actual experience. Notions like "Pure Consciousness" and "Cosmic Consciousness" are clearly religious beliefs for example.
It's tempting to project these states of mind outwards and assume they reflect or connect with some sort of higher "reality", but this can reflect wishful thinking rather than what is actually happening.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Consciousness is already in place prior to the senses. Only ordinary consciousness is limited by the senses. Ordinary consciousness is conditioned awareness. Higher Consciousness is unconditioned awareness, freed of the limitations of the senses. That is why it is associated with spiritual freedom.

You still haven't answered the question. How can consciousness be unlimited, practically speaking? A straightforward jargon-free explanation would be appreciated.

 

[YmirGF]

You still haven't answered the question. How can consciousness be unlimited, practically speaking?

There's the rub, eh? My answer would be that consciousness is ALWAYS limited as understanding never reaches a point where it is infinite. Greatly expanded? Perhaps. Infinite... um, that is well beyond the pay grade of any human animal who has ever lived or will ever live... to say with any authority. For example, how would you actually know that your understanding is infinite?

 

[godnotgod]

Indeed. You could talk about altered states of consciousness in meditation for example, but claiming these as any more than altered states of mind is tenuous, and such assumptions are usually more to do with religious belief than the actual experience. Notions like "Pure Consciousness" and "Cosmic Consciousness" are clearly religious beliefs for example.
It's tempting to project these states of mind outwards and assume they reflect or connect with some sort of higher "reality", but this can reflect wishful thinking rather than what is actually happening.

Wrong....very wrong.

Most people's minds are in the state of altered consciousness already, as they are the products of their social indoctrination, their culture, religions, government propaganda, etc. The mystical view is the mind of unconditioned consciousness, now freed from the restraints of social indoctrination and conditioning. The mystical view is not a projection of something else; it is to simply see things as they actually are, and things as they actually are, ie; 'Reality', has no doctrine. Therefore, the mystical view is doctrineless, and therefore, not religious. In fact it is transcendent of all religious views. It is, instead, the spiritual experience, which releases oneself from the slavery of mental conditioning. Such liberation we call 'Enlightenment'.

'Pure Consciousness' simply means 'clear'. Is that a problem for you?

 

[godnotgod]

You still haven't answered the question. How can consciousness be unlimited, practically speaking? A straightforward jargon-free explanation would be appreciated.

What is in your mind that limits it?

 

[godnotgod]

There's the rub, eh? My answer would be that consciousness is ALWAYS limited as understanding never reaches a point where it is infinite. Greatly expanded? Perhaps. Infinite... um, that is well beyond the pay grade of any human animal who has ever lived or will ever live... to say with any authority. For example, how would you actually know that your understanding is infinite?

Because all things come out of that which is undifferentiated; The One. Mind is differentiated and limited. That is what you are referring to. Conditioned mind. But consciousness prior to conditioning is clear, unlimited, unconditioned, and limitless. So if you understand the nature of all phenomena, though differentiated, you understand the nature of each and every phenomena, all phenomena having the same underlying nature. That's what makes such an understanding universal. As the Hindus say: 'the saltiness of the sea is the same everywhere'.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

'Pure Consciousness' simply means 'clear'. Is that a problem for you?

If you mean seeing clearly then why not just say that? Why all the jargon and reification of consciousness, references to Brahman and "Cosmic Consciousness"?

But then seeing clearly is probably more to do with a clearer state of mind than the basic function of consciousness or awareness. You keep trying to reify consciousness but it is actually a basic function, that of awareness.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

What is in your mind that limits it?

Now you're being evasive. Please just answer the question. If you can't then be honest enough to say so.

 

[godnotgod]

If you mean seeing clearly then why not just say that? Why all the jargon and reification of consciousness, references to Brahman and "Cosmic Consciousness"?

But then seeing clearly is probably more to do with a clearer state of mind than the basic function of consciousness or awareness. You keep trying to reify consciousness but it is actually a basic function, that of awareness.

No, I am not referring to seeing things clearly via Reason. That is still conditioned awareness. I'm not knocking it. Higher Consciousness involves a radical transformation of consciousness via direct experience, rather than by simple reasoning. It is much more powerful than the process of Reason. It is not contaminated by doctrine, belief, idea, conjecture, or even Reason. It is clear through and through. Sunyata.

 

[godnotgod]

Now you're being evasive. Please just answer the question. If you can't then be honest enough to say so.

I am zeroing in on the question, not evading it. You asked how consciousness can be unlimited, but what is there that limits it in the first place for you to ask such a question? IOW, consciousness is unlimited from the very beginning. We limit it via ideas. Get it? So what is in your mind that makes you think consciousness is limited?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Higher Consciousness involves a radical transformation of consciousness via direct experience, rather than by simple reasoning.

I don't accept this reification of consciousness. In my view consciousness is just consciousness, it's the basic function of awareness. What actually changes is one's state of mind.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I am zeroing in on the question, not evading it. You asked how consciousness can be unlimited, but what is there that limits it in the first place for you to ask such a question? IOW, consciousness is unlimited from the very beginning. We limit it via ideas. Get it? So what is in your mind that makes you think consciousness is limited?

No. You claimed that consciousness is infinite and unlimited by the senses, so I asked you to explain how this can be, practically speaking. You have continually evaded the question, I'm pretty sure you don't know how to answer it.

 

[godnotgod]

I don't accept this reification of consciousness. In my view consciousness is just consciousness, it's the basic function of awareness. What actually changes is one's state of mind.

Tell me something. Does Theravada teach that the Buddha attained the state of consciousness known as Enlightenment?

 

[godnotgod]

No. You claimed that consciousness is infinite and unlimited by the senses, so I asked you to explain how this can be, practically speaking. You have continually evaded the question, I'm pretty sure you don't know how to answer it.

Maybe you're just being anal. I have answered it over and over. You just don't get it, do you?

Consciousness is before the senses, and therefore is not limited by them. Everything follows from that.

What is in your mind that would make you think consciousness to be limited? Are you understanding this, or not? Not, I think. Go to your room.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Tell me something. Does Theravada teach that the Buddha attained the state of consciousness known as Enlightenment?

The suttas don't reify consciousness in the way that you do. Neither does the Heart Sutra.
Here for example is the Phena Sutta, which could be regarded as an early template for the Heart Sutra:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.095.than.html

So again the question: You claimed that consciousness is infinite and unlimited by the senses, so please explain how this can be, practically speaking.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Consciousness is before the senses, and therefore is not limited by them. Everything follows from that.

Further evasion. Not an answer to the question I posed.

 

[YmirGF]

Because all things come out of that which is undifferentiated; The One. Mind is differentiated and limited. That is what you are referring to. Conditioned mind. But consciousness prior to conditioning is clear, unlimited, unconditioned, and limitless. So if you understand the nature of all phenomena, though differentiated, you understand the nature of each and every phenomena, all phenomena having the same underlying nature. That's what makes such an understanding universal. As the Hindus say: 'the saltiness of the sea is the same everywhere'.

As much as I feel sorry for you for what you have done to yourself, what you are saying above is little more than a faith statement. Even the nugget "you understand the nature of each and every phenomena" is a gross distortion as you certainly show no evidence of understanding very much, let alone "each and every phenomena". I do understand that a given human animal could convince themselves that they were intuiting reality so, especially if they had consciously detached themselves from their reasoning faculties.

 

[godnotgod]

The suttas don't reify consciousness in the way that you do. Neither does the Heart Sutra.
Here for example is the Phena Sutta, which could be regarded as an early template for the Heart Sutra:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.095.than.html

So again the question: You claimed that consciousness is infinite and unlimited by the senses, so please explain how this can be, practically speaking.

That is not what I asked. I am asking you. As a Theravada Buddhist, are you taught that the Buddha attained a state of consciousness known as Enlightenment?