Right and Wrong Reasons for being (A)theist

[Altfish]

That is fine. On your side you have your unfounded speculation.

On my side I have the entire history of man, genetic studies, and behavioral neuroscience.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

How did you discover god. I know I was told about it at school, church, relatives, friends.
How did I find atheism, I started realising that god didn't make sense, I'd been lied to, it was only then I realised (nearly 50-years ago) that I was an atheist.
If that is unfounded speculation, then fine.

 

[Revoltingest]

What discourages you from lying, cheating or even murder? Do you feel any guilt if you performed those acts?
Just curious.

Those acts would go against my personal values,
just as it would for most believers I know (most).

 

[Audie]

What discourages you from lying, cheating or even murder? Do you feel any guilt if you performed those acts?

Just curious.

I find that seriously weird that anyone would think to ask such a question!

 

[Ponder This]

Do you believe there are right and wrong reasons for being an atheist or a theist? If so, what are those reasons? Do those reasons apply just to you, or do you believe they apply to all humans?

If by 'right' and 'wrong' you mean logically consistent and logically inconsistent, then I think that there can be many such reasons. Honesty would be the important virtue to consider. So both atheists and theists can have their own personal logically consistent reasons for their beliefs and that obviously they cannot apply to everyone.
For example, an atheist might say, " I don't believe in God, because there is no evidence for Him," which is logically consistent with his belief. And a theist might say, "I believe in God, everything attests to the reality of His existence," which is logically consistent with his belief. What matters is that they are are being honest with themselves.

If by 'right' and 'wrong' you mean a moral question, then I think those are the real reasons that can apply to everyone. Are they being honest with themselves? Do your reasons align with moral values?

 

[Revoltingest]

I find that seriously weird that anyone would think to ask such a question!

It makes perfect sense for a believer to ask.
They see morals as being given them by their religion.
But I see morals as originating in genetics, family, & culture.

 

[Quetzal]

Do you believe there are right and wrong reasons for being an atheist or a theist? If so, what are those reasons? Do those reasons apply just to you, or do you believe they apply to all humans?

For me, when it comes to personal belief systems, there is no need to justify reasoning. If it something that you accept, enjoy, and embody, that is your own and you do not have to reason with anyone else as to why. Live and let live, is what I am trying to say.

 

[LuisDantas]

What discourages you from lying, cheating or even murder? Do you feel any guilt if you performed those acts?

Just curious.

I know that the question was not directed towards me, but if you and @Revoltingest will both indulge me, my answers are, in that order:

1. Ethical considerations.
2. Sometimes.

 

[Quintessence]

Of course. And yes they apply to everyone. Ones worldview should be based on a reflective and careful appraisal of the evidence he/she has and the experiences he has undergone. It should not be based on emotional biases, prejudices or selfish convenience for personal gain.

Can you unpack why you feel emotional bias, selfishness, or personal gain are bad reasons? Is it because those conflict with your sense of ethics? Are there ways in which these things are benign or good?

I think the emotional bias one in particular confuses me. I do not know any human that lacks biases, particularly of the emotional sort. It seems it would be impossible to avoid this?

People have to be indoctrinated into believing in a god. If children are taught about Father Christmas they believe it; when children are taught about god they believe it.
If kids were not taught religion then they would by default be atheists.

Remember, religion =/= theism and irreligion =/= atheism. I don't agree regardless, but if we could try to keep the topic to theism and atheism specifically, that would be awesome.

No. Dont think so. What do you mean by right or wrong reasons?

Right or wrong reasons of the existence of god(s)?

You normally ask deeper than "surface" level questions...do explain

This was inspired by a comment made in another thread. I felt the topic was worth exploring and didn't want to derail that thread with it. It was remarked that there was a particular right reason for being an atheist. I found that idea strange, and wanted to discuss it a bit more and see if others felt there were right or wrong reasons for being an atheist or a theist. When we think about that question, it reflects something of our personal values, I think.

For example, I'm not sure I'd name any reasons as right or wrong; probably because one of my values is pluralism and I don't expect one-size-fits-all approaches or reasons for anything or anyone.

 

[Quintessence]

You'd need to go in to a whole load of further detail that the simplistic binary before you start talking about actual reasons for someone believing or not believing in specific deities or deities in general (which in my experience, usually leads to much more deep and interesting questions anyway ).

Please feel free to dive into this! I don't find the simplistic binary particularly useful either, so what are some of your thoughts moving beyond that? How would good reasons for accepting, say, polytheism look different from good reasons for accepting autotheism? Or would they be different?

For me, when it comes to personal belief systems, there is no need to justify reasoning. If it something that you accept, enjoy, and embody, that is your own and you do not have to reason with anyone else as to why. Live and let live, is what I am trying to say.

Damn, I wish I heard this more often. So often we are demanded to have a reason for this, a reason for that. It's not enough to just be. Perhaps it should be enough to simply be, eh? As a frequent victim of mental consternation due to overanalyzing everything, I can sure embrace that as an idea...

 

[Quetzal]

Damn, I wish I heard this more often. So often we are demanded to have a reason for this, a reason for that. It's not enough to just be. Perhaps it should be enough to simply be, eh? As a frequent victim of mental consternation due to overanalyzing everything, I can sure embrace that as an idea...

Preach! We can even broaden this to almost any facet of life. Wanna take a vacation from work? Do it and use that PTO. New job? Take it. A person does not owe anyone an explanation. Sometimes it is polite to do so, but it is very rarely mandatory. We each only have one life to live and we do not have to explain ourselves unless there is a legal obligation to do so.

 

[Revoltingest]

Preach! We can even broaden this to almost any facet of life. Wanna take a vacation from work? Do it and use that PTO. New job? Take it. A person does not owe anyone an explanation. Sometimes it is polite to do so, but it is very rarely mandatory. We each only have one life to live and we do not have to explain ourselves unless there is a legal obligation to do so.

But how does atheism affect the taste of humans?

 

[Quetzal]

What discourages you from lying, cheating or even murder? Do you feel any guilt if you performed those acts?

For me? It boils down to the 11th commandment: don't be a jerk. You do not need to be a god fearing individual to understand that you should not do bad things.

 

[Quetzal]

But how does atheism affect the taste of humans?

I stole my BBQ recipe from early Christianity, actually. Skewer them standing up and then roast them? Genius and delicious.

 

[Phantasman]

It makes perfect sense for a believer to ask.
They see morals as being given them by their religion.
But I see morals as originating in genetics, family, & culture.

Thank you. I knew these morals before I knew religion, probably more as a "golden rule" type thing.

A lot has to do by how one is raised, sans religion. Lots of loving caring people who are not religious. As well as some terrible people who claim they are.

Many times I find an atheist more honest in their beliefs than many who claim Christianity.

Christianity comes in so many different flavors, and atheist seems to be content with none of it rather than the noise created by it.

My question was just an exploration into the core, nothing more.

Asking questions is better than assuming.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Can you unpack why you feel emotional bias, selfishness, or personal gain are bad reasons? Is it because those conflict with your sense of ethics? Are there ways in which these things are benign or good?

I think the emotional bias one in particular confuses me. I do not know any human that lacks biases, particularly of the emotional sort. It seems it would be impossible to avoid this?



Remember, religion =/= theism and irreligion =/= atheism. I don't agree regardless, but if we could try to keep the topic to theism and atheism specifically, that would be awesome.



This was inspired by a comment made in another thread. I felt the topic was worth exploring and didn't want to derail that thread with it. It was remarked that there was a particular right reason for being an atheist. I found that idea strange, and wanted to discuss it a bit more and see if others felt there were right or wrong reasons for being an atheist or a theist. When we think about that question, it reflects something of our personal values, I think.

For example, I'm not sure I'd name any reasons as right or wrong; probably because one of my values is pluralism and I don't expect one-size-fits-all approaches or reasons for anything or anyone.

I'd define right and wrong as personal reasons why you would believe in X religion and not Y. Of course its personal preference on the same coin if there no moralities and no values true to yourself, then you can believe anything is right (and wrong). The morality and having core values lets you identify your beliefs and values in contrast with others.

For example, since you believe in pluralism, monism (if thats the right word) would be wrong for you. It doesnt work in your worldview so it cant be right for you. If it does and how you see life, you can express pluralism but once you claim values, belief, vanilla ice cream for that matter, it means something is "right" about that flavor that chocolate just doesnt do the trick. Its wording and bias behind the words moreso than the perspective of how morality shapes our decisions regardless the language.

Does being an atheist have something to do with morality?

Its an odd question, but yes (now that I understand your question). The right reason to be an an atheist is basically, how can you be amything else. Comparing it to theism, atheism (beginning to hate the word) lets me see the world from the perspective of all our beliefs come from our mind. It helps me pin things together to understand supernatural. Its using the negatives of a film to define the picture. Interesting to do. Look up neurotheology. Its a contraversal field but you may find some academics on it.

Hope that somewhat answered your question. I never heard of having a reason to "be" an atheist. We usually have reasons we act the way we do. Things we can control with our decisions we want to do whether right (what works for us) and wrong (what doesnt).

Thats like finding right or wrong reasons to be lesbian. It just is.

I know. Long winded answer. Think I got it at the end.

 

[Phantasman]

For me? It boils down to the 11th commandment: don't be a jerk. You do not need to be a god fearing individual to understand that you should not do bad things.

So you are concerned how others view you. In my view of Christianity, there is no fear. I know the others (orthodox) teach fear, like a carrot and stick. To me, God wants us to love others as ourselves. It appears an atheist can do the same thing without seeing a god.

Sometimes I think that the same freedom an atheist feels without a god, is a lot like the freedom a (true) Christian feels knowing God.

I see many flaws in Biblical orthodoxy. Which is why I can understand those who don't see god in it.

 

[JustWondering]

I think untruthful ideas are bad reason for anything. And most atheistic reasons seem to be untruthful. It is ok to me, if people don’t believe, but if they explain it with false arguments, I think that is not good.

Please present some of these untruthful reasons.

 

[Quetzal]

So you are concerned how others view you.

Good question. It depends on who it is. I do value the opinion of loved ones and friends. They are important to me and they offer a critical look at my actions when I might miss it myself.

In my view of Christianity, there is no fear. I know the others (orthodox) teach fear, like a carrot and stick. To me, God wants us to love others as ourselves. It appears an atheist can do the same thing without seeing a god.

I see this as a very healthy relationship with the divine. I am happy to see you take this path in lieu of others.

Sometimes I think that the same freedom an atheist feels without a god, is a lot like the freedom a (true) Christian feels knowing God.

I think this is perfectly reasonable. I have heard this thought echoed by other believers that I respect.

 

[Sunstone]

Do you believe there are right and wrong reasons for being an atheist or a theist? If so, what are those reasons? Do those reasons apply just to you, or do you believe they apply to all humans?

I would prefer the term "nontheist" to atheist here because I think it more accurately defines the opposite of "theist".

Having made that point -- which I am certain will be properly ignored by everyone -- I do believe that some "arguments" for nontheism are mere nubblers and perkle-squats. Among those superficial arguments, I rank, "I don't like god or the gods", and all variations of it, as heinous abominations to all that is logical and reasonable. Indeed, such arguments are -- dare I say it? -- downright juvenile fencklesmithing of the highest order.

Beyond that, I find arguments that "no god or gods can exist because a particular god or gods cannot exist" to be deeply problematic and most likely hideously speculative. I do realize, however, that such wild and unfounded metaphysical speculations appeal to the darkest irrational passions of our noble and esteemed species of spear-chucking super-apes.

On the theist side, I find arguments of the nature, "I believe because it makes me feel good to believe", to be even less compelling than a turklewrench's lonely mating cry in the darkest hours of a Winter's night. Who but a fellow turklewrench could be moved by such forlorn screeching?

Last, I apologize for my possibly inflammatory use of vulgarities, such as "nubblers" and "fencklesmithing" in responding to the OP. It is not my intention to have offended anyone by resorting to the low and coarse speech of epistemologists when out and about the town and drinking heavily. I merely wish to emphasize how passionately I feel about these issues.

 

[Sunstone]

For me, when it comes to personal belief systems, there is no need to justify reasoning.

Fair enough so long as your "personal belief system" does not lead you to unjustly harming others, or is represented by you as good reason for others to believe as you do. But once you cross either of those lines, then you'd best have reasons for your beliefs that others might find compelling -- and others do have a right to challenge your beliefs if and when you cross those lines. As my first wife used to all too often say to me, "There's a huge difference between, 'I believe I'm a good lover', and 'You should believe I am a good lover, too'."