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Right and Wrong Reasons for being (A)theist

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
That is interesting argument. Does that work in all aspects of life? For example, there is no reason to believe species evolved as the theory of evolution suggests, so the books about it are irrelevant?

No, because we have good hard evidence that species exist, regardless of whether any books have been written about them or not. Can't say the same about a god.
It's one thing to be able to directly observe something in reality with your available senses and then write a book that explains how those species evolved based upon empirical evidence. It is another to write a book about something that has never been shown to exist in reality.
If you can provide anywhere close to the same quantity and quality of evidence for a god that can be provided for the existence of species of animals and how genetics works, go ahead...
On the other hand, if someone wrote a book about how animals evolved but there were no animals to be found.....yes, the book would be irrelevant.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
You obviously have access to the internet and if you are a Christian you also likely have a bible. Using both it is easy to find verses that don't match up. ...

And when person remains in truth, there is really no contradictions or parts that don’t match up.

And there are really no prophecies that are failed. Not all are meant to have happened already, but it is not same as fail.

But obviously, because I have internet connection, I know that many atheists claim otherwise. However, I have checked the atheistic claims and I know they are based and bad interpretations or misunderstandings. There really is no contradiction in the Bible, if people remain in truth and don’t give added meanings that really are not in the Bible.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
No, because we have good hard evidence that species exist, regardless of whether any books have been written about them or not. Can't say the same about a god.
....

Bible tells God is love. I know love and have observed it, so I just can’t say love doesn’t exist, all though I agree that it seems to be missing from world leaders.

He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love.
1 John 4:8

And animals are not proof for evolution. If they would be proof for something, they would be proof for that God created.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
@1213 : the existence of animals is not evidence of evolution.

The research that learns from their characteristics, though, is something else entirely.
 
And when person remains in truth, there is really no contradictions or parts that don’t match up.

And there are really no prophecies that are failed. Not all are meant to have happened already, but it is not same as fail.

But obviously, because I have internet connection, I know that many atheists claim otherwise. However, I have checked the atheistic claims and I know they are based and bad interpretations or misunderstandings. There really is no contradiction in the Bible, if people remain in truth and don’t give added meanings that really are not in the Bible.

You are simply wrong. I provided you with a good starting point to illustrate my point which I doubt you even looked at. The truth is, to remain a believer in Christianity you need to embrace being willfully ignorant and shutting your eyes to obvious evidence that contradicts your beliefs. Until you honestly look at your beliefs and apply critical thinking when examining Christianity's claims no amount of evidence and rational arguments are going to penetrate your CLOSED mind.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Do you believe there are right and wrong reasons for being an atheist or a theist?
Anyone can believe anything they want as long as they don't harm others. Preferably people should attempt to come to positions supported by good arguments. Perhaps better education with this as the goal would facilitate this.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Do you believe there are right and wrong reasons for being an atheist or a theist? If so, what are those reasons? Do those reasons apply just to you, or do you believe they apply to all humans?
Right reason for being an atheist: Not believing in any god or gods.

Wrong reason for being an atheist: anything else.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Right reason for being an atheist: Not believing in any god or gods.

That's not really a reason though, that's just the definition of an atheist. Should I take this to mean you don't believe reasons are necessary at all?


Anyone can believe anything they want as long as they don't harm others. Preferably people should attempt to come to positions supported by good arguments. Perhaps better education with this as the goal would facilitate this.

A good notion in spirit, though practically unfeasible. One of the more well-known movements within contemporary Paganism, called Wicca, has an ethical maxim similar to this "don't harm others." It's been analyzed and argued about quite a lot, and from that it's apparent that the maxim is inadequate. One of the major reason for this is that Pagans rarely just mean "humans" when they say "others." Conflicts are inevitable, so there has to be some guiding principle beyond "don't do harm" as doing harm is also inevitable.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Bible tells God is love. I know love and have observed it, so I just can’t say love doesn’t exist, all though I agree that it seems to be missing from world leaders.

He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love.
1 John 4:8

And animals are not proof for evolution. If they would be proof for something, they would be proof for that God created.

We can observe genetic drift happening. We do it on purpose, when we breed domestic animals for certain characteristics.

I didn't say that animals were proof of evolution, I said speciation was.

I don't see how animals, or indeed, anything that exists is proof of a god. Tell me how you eliminated the other possibilities and then demonstrate that your god can produce something.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
I didn't say that animals were proof of evolution, I said speciation was.

Ok. I can agree that there happen changes in offspring. I just don’t believe those changes could lead to all species from single species.

Seeing chain of species is not itself really evidence that it was the system that produced all. Or what do you think, in houses it can be seen chain of evolution, from caves to skyscrapers. Are buildings made and designed by evolution, or by humans? With evolutionists logic, the answer should be by evolution. While person who believes in God can easily see the creator behind of it.

I don't see how animals, or indeed, anything that exists is proof of a god. Tell me how you eliminated the other possibilities and then demonstrate that your god can produce something.

Allegedly God created animals. The animals exist, so we have evidence for the creation. But obviously we could make other explanation for that. However, if we couldn’t find any animals, we would have reason to doubt it really happened.

Other possibilities are that life appeared spontaneously, without God. If that would be true and life on earth would have that property, I think we should be able to see it in nature. There is no such observation, therefore it is more likely that God created.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Ok. I can agree that there happen changes in offspring. I just don’t believe those changes could lead to all species from single species.

Seeing chain of species is not itself really evidence that it was the system that produced all. Or what do you think, in houses it can be seen chain of evolution, from caves to skyscrapers. Are buildings made and designed by evolution, or by humans? With evolutionists logic, the answer should be by evolution. While person who believes in God can easily see the creator behind of it.

You are correct, seeing a chain of species is not enough evidence. But I did not offer such a chain as evidence in a vacuum. There much more evidence than that. You can readily find it, but here is a site that explains much of it. TalkOrigins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution Controversy. Read up on all of the evidence so you are informed and then we can continue to discuss the topic if you wish. I cannot possibly type in all of the evidence here, there is far to much, coming from numerous scientific fields. Also, read the responses to creationist claims and be ready to offer a rational response to those.

Allegedly God created animals. The animals exist, so we have evidence for the creation. But obviously we could make other explanation for that. However, if we couldn’t find any animals, we would have reason to doubt it really happened.

The fact that animals exist is not evidence of an intelligent creator. There existence does not in any way demonstrate that. The claim of the existence of a creator requires proof of it's own. First you demonstrate (not just claim) that the god exists, and then demonstrate (not just claim) that the god can create animals.
I could allege that magic pixies created animals, but that does not provide proof that they did create animals or that pixies exist. I would have to demonstrate that pixies actually exist and that they can actually create animals.

You said it yourself...a god "allegedly" created animals. It is an allegation, not a demonstrated fact. There is plenty of evidence that genetic drift is influenced by environmental factors.
If you do not believe that genetic changes can accumulate over a very long time frame to produce populations of animals different enough that they can be classified as separate species, then present the evidence for the barrier that halts the genetic drift prior to speciation.


Other possibilities are that life appeared spontaneously, without God. If that would be true and life on earth would have that property, I think we should be able to see it in nature. There is no such observation, therefore it is more likely that God created.

Are you talking about abiogenesis, (the origin of life), or are you saying that all animals might have appeared fully formed as they are today? If the later, what would make you think that? What would we be able to see in nature?

But let's do a thought experiment: Let's suppose that evolution was proven to be wholly false tomorrow. Where does that actually leave us?

Now we only have a mystery. It in no way demonstrates that your god does or ever has existed, or that it had anything to do with creating anything in the universe. We would simply not know how life and it's diversity came about.

You would still have all of your work ahead of you to demonstrate the existence of your god and to demonstrate it could create anything at all, much less the universe and life.

Bonus question: What does evolution have to do with atheism?
Answer: Nothing at all.
 
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1213

Well-Known Member
You said it yourself...a god "allegedly" created animals. It is an allegation, not a demonstrated fact. There is plenty of evidence that genetic drift is influenced by environmental factors.

Also, species by evolution is not a fact, it is a belief. (if evolution means that all species have evolved from single species by mechanisms of evolution). If it would be demonstrated fact, we could arrange an experiment where mouse evolves to fish. That obviously is ridiculous idea, and means it is not demonstrated fact. But obviously people are free to believe whatever fairytale they want.

If you do not believe that genetic changes can accumulate over a very long time frame to produce populations of animals different enough that they can be classified as separate species, then present the evidence for the barrier that halts the genetic drift prior to speciation.

If one wants, classifications can be made easily so that it looks like there is more species. If it would not be racist, black and white people would be also called different species.

Are you talking about abiogenesis, (the origin of life), or are you saying that all animals might have appeared fully formed as they are today?

I was talking about any other explanation for life.

But let's do a thought experiment: Let's suppose that evolution was proven to be wholly false tomorrow. Where does that actually leave us?

Nowhere. People who don’t like truth, can always make another explanation.

Bonus question: What does evolution have to do with atheism?

It is the excuse for them to reject God.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
Also, species by evolution is not a fact, it is a belief.

Evolution is both a fact and a scientific theory in the same way that gravity is both a fact and a scientific theory. It is a demonstrable fact that life has changed over geologic time. The theory of evolution is the explanation for how that changed happened.

It is the excuse for them to reject God.

There are millions and millions of Christians who accept evolution as a valid scientific theory.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Evolution is both a fact and a scientific theory in the same way that gravity is both a fact and a scientific theory. It is a demonstrable fact that life has changed over geologic time. The theory of evolution is the explanation for how that changed happened.

This is depending very much on what we mean with evolution. If it means that species have evolved from single species, that is not a fact, if fact means: “a statement that is consistent with reality or can be proven with evidence”. If evolution in its bigger meaning would be true scientific fact, it could be demonstrated, for example by breeding fish into a mouse.

But I agree, it is an explanation. I just think it is ignorant and stupid and wrong.

There are millions and millions of Christians who accept evolution as a valid scientific theory.

There are millions of Christians that allegedly believe in God, is that enough reason for you to believe in God? If not, why would you think their beliefs about evolution would mean anything?
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
This is depending very much on what we mean with evolution. If it means that species have evolved from single species, that is not a fact, if fact means: “a statement that is consistent with reality or can be proven with evidence”.

I prefer Stephen Jay Gould's definition of fact:

"In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms."--Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory"
Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory" 1994

Universal common ancestry has been confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent. The genetic evidence is overwhelming. For example, all life uses the same genetic systems with tRNA and codon usage. This only makes sense in the light of universal common ancestry.

If evolution in its bigger meaning would be true scientific fact, it could be demonstrated, for example by breeding fish into a mouse.

That would falsify evolution because no modern species should ever evolve into another modern species. I always find it strange that people who reject evolution will only accept it once we find evidence that runs contrary to the theory.

But I agree, it is an explanation. I just think it is ignorant and stupid and wrong.

Given that you think fish evolving into mice is consistent with the theory of evolution, I don't think you should be accusing others of being ignorant, stupid, or wrong. As the biblical phrase goes, you might want to remove that plank from your eye.

There are millions of Christians that allegedly believe in God, is that enough reason for you to believe in God? If not, why would you think their beliefs about evolution would mean anything?

The question is if evolution is compatible with Christianity, and given the millions of Christians who accept evolution it would appear that they are compatible. You might want to go to Biologos.org to do some more reading. They are a Christian group who explains how evolution is compatible with their beliefs.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
And when person remains in truth, there is really no contradictions or parts that don’t match up.

And there are really no prophecies that are failed. Not all are meant to have happened already, but it is not same as fail.

But obviously, because I have internet connection, I know that many atheists claim otherwise. However, I have checked the atheistic claims and I know they are based and bad interpretations or misunderstandings. There really is no contradiction in the Bible, if people remain in truth and don’t give added meanings that really are not in the Bible.

Sorry, but some prophecies were clearly aimed at an individual. And there are examples of those failing. To defend some of the prophecies of the Bible you have to debase the concept to such a degree that it is worthless. By the standards that you will have to use the prophecies of other religions have been "fulfilled" as much as the prophecies of the Christian religion.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
…For example, all life uses the same genetic systems with tRNA and codon usage. This only makes sense in the light of universal common ancestry…

One could as well say it proves that the creator is the same and used same systems to create optimal things to this world.

That would falsify evolution because no modern species should ever evolve into another modern species…

Please explain why? Why it can be said that whale evolved like in these pictures:

https://www.google.fi/search?q=evolution+of+whale&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=byJ4YdMAPs_7jM%253A%252C80a4W5shegurNM%252C_&usg=__2oUAjXufAGRyrzw4Bgm2XTxUG2I%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjd_LHG1c7aAhUBJpoKHTNJDUYQ9QEIPjAD#imgrc=byJ4YdMAPs_7jM:

But same couldn’t happen with modern species?
 
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