right to basic education for ultra-orthodox boys in Israel

[thomas t]

... that's an old story:
Former ultra-Orthodox Jews demand basic education
former ultra-Orthodox Jews are suing the Israeli state for having failed to grant them the right of getting some basic education in math and English. Boys get even less education than girls.

However, I couldn't find anything about how this lawsuit turned out.

So I assume this case is still pending.

Shown in below video, see from minute 46:10 onwards (it's in French language though), two former Haredim explain that they are sueing the Israeli state for just that.

Also, a former Haredim explained* that he didn't get any sex education until two weeks before marriage from a Rabbi.
If I understood him right... he didn't get to see the whole picture even then.

* see from minute 44 on...

I posted a link to a French video since I didn't find any comparable source in English. This is just to back my point up by at least some source.

 

[Regiomontanus]

... that's an old story:
Former ultra-Orthodox Jews demand basic education
former ultra-Orthodox Jews are suing the Israeli state for having failed to grant them the right of getting some basic education in math and English. Boys get even less education than girls.

However, I couldn't find anything about how this lawsuit turned out.

So I assume this case is still pending.

Shown in below video, see from minute 46:10 onwards (it's in French language though), two former Haredim explain that they are sueing the Israeli state for just that.

Also, a former Haredim explained* that he didn't get any sex education until two weeks before marriage from a Rabbi.
If I understood him right... he didn't get to see the whole picture even then.

* see from minute 44 on...

I posted a link to a French video since I didn't find any comparable source in English. This is just to back my point up by at least some source.

"...are suing the Israeli state for having failed to grant them the right of getting some basic education in math and English"

You mean they were prevented/not allowed the education? Surely not.

 

[Nimos]

... that's an old story:

This is completely irrelevant to what you wrote.. but I have to ask, if anyone know

Those cylindrical hats they are wearing, is that fashion within the ultra orthodoxe community or is it some religious hat, never seen that one before?

 

[thomas t]

This is completely irrelevant to what you wrote.. but I have to ask, if anyone know

Those cylindrical hats they are wearing, is that fashion within the ultra orthodoxe community or is it some religious hat, never seen that one before?

these were the hats fashionable in 18th century Vienna, if I am informed right. They just took it and refused any more recent fashion after.

 

[thomas t]

You mean they were prevented/not allowed the education?

actually I mean that the state of Israel did not make sure they enjoy the education enshrined in basic human rights.
See article 26 of Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It is explained here: What you need to know about the right to education

 

[Rival]

This is completely irrelevant to what you wrote.. but I have to ask, if anyone know

Those cylindrical hats they are wearing, is that fashion within the ultra orthodoxe community or is it some religious hat, never seen that one before?

Shtreimels are worn by Chassidim.

 

[Harel13]

actually I mean that the state of Israel did not make sure they enjoy the education enshrined in basic human rights.
See article 26 of Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It is explained here: What you need to know about the right to education

I see nothing here about a right to know English or Mathematics. I feel, however, that you are jumping head-first into an issue you don't know much about, merely screaming "human rights!!!" without understanding the context.

Within Israeli society there are educational rights for different communities. There are Ultra-Orthodox schools that have some level of basic education, even up to high school finals (te'udat bagrut in Hebrew) and others that emphasize Torah-studies only (past learning reading and writing, of course). Bad luck for these kids who were born in the """wrong""" sub-community.

 

[thomas t]

Thank you for the additional information you brought in.

I see nothing here about a right to know English or Mathematics. I feel, however, that you are jumping head-first into an issue you don't know much about, merely screaming "human rights!!!" without understanding the context.

regardless of what I know, there is no reason for the state not to ensure basic education for all citizens of its territory - rather I should say all children that live within its territory.

But certainly, you're right in asserting that there are different groups among the ultra-Orthodox.

 

[Harel13]

regardless of what I know, there is no reason for the state not to ensure basic education for all citizens of its territory - rather I should say all children that live within its territory.

See, this is exactly why I think you lack severe knowledge in this field. You fail to understand how the Ultra-Orthodox mindset works and moreover, how the Israeli mindset works.

 

[Nimos]

these were the hats fashionable in 18th century Vienna, if I am informed right. They just took it and refused any more recent fashion after.

Thanks interesting

 

[thomas t]

See, this is exactly why I think you lack severe knowledge in this field. You fail to understand how the Ultra-Orthodox mindset works and moreover, how the Israeli mindset works.

ah interesting. That's certainly right.
However, both a certain mindset within a specific minority group (whatever that may be) and a certain mindset of a people (whatever it looks like) must not count as a reason to discriminate against children of that group in a sense that the state does not enforce the right to basic education in said group.
Whatever the mindsets may be.

 

[Harel13]

However, both a certain mindset within a specific minority group (whatever that may be) and a certain mindset of a people (whatever it looks like) must not count as a reason to discriminate against children of that group in a sense that the state does not enforce the right to basic education in said group.

Well, at least with every post we zoom in more on why exactly your understanding of the situation is problematic. You assume this is discrimination. That's not how it's viewed 'round here. For this, the state does not enforce this.

A slightly similar though highly extreme parallel would be how the UN views Israel's handling of our Palestinian neighbors and how Israel itself views what it's doing.

 

[thomas t]

You assume this is discrimination. That's not how it's viewed 'round here.

I have a hard time understanding this, Harel.
Kids from other neighborhoods can learn math or English as is their fundamental human right.
Kids from some ultra-orthodox groups can't.
That's where I see the discrimination going on.
The state cannot just sit down saying "well, bad luck for them then" (I mean just in case that's seen as an option). The state must ensure they learn.

Israeli-Palestinian conflict is too special for me here... I hope you excuse my cop-out.

EIDT: Let me draw a comparison.
When there is a severe health risk in a region because some accident happens involving some chemicals and people are at risk of having to leave their environment... the government can't lean back saying "well bad luck for them then". They must do something. They can't just respect some attitudes or anything of this sort. They must go there and deal with the issue. The population has a right to health and a right to proper living conditions. The state must provide in this case.

 

[Valjean]

these were the hats fashionable in 18th century Vienna, if I am informed right. They just took it and refused any more recent fashion after.

The ultra orthodox are quite conservative. They've seen no reason to change their dress or lifestyle for the past 200 years.
Shtreimel - Wikipedia

I don't know about the Israeli orthodox, but many of the American orthodox tend to be extremely insular and unconnected to the wider world. They have their own schools and social institutions. Many couldn't tell you who Abraham Lincoln was, when the first world war was, or find Great Britain on a map.
A Life Apart: Hasidism In America -- Inside the Community: A Holy Life

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I see nothing here about a right to know English or Mathematics. I feel, however, that you are jumping head-first into an issue you don't know much about, merely screaming "human rights!!!" without understanding the context.

Within Israeli society there are educational rights for different communities. There are Ultra-Orthodox schools that have some level of basic education, even up to high school finals (te'udat bagrut in Hebrew) and others that emphasize Torah-studies only (past learning reading and writing, of course). Bad luck for these kids who were born in the """wrong""" sub-community.

I think that's precisely the issue: when the rights of a community conflict with the rights of individuals within that community, which should win out?

Should private schools be required to provide a basic level of education in order for the state to say "yes, attending this school meets the requirements for compulsory education for children"?

 

[Harel13]

Kids from other neighborhoods can learn math or English as is their fundamental human right.

I will do my best to try to explain.
You have an assumption that all children deserve to learn English and math. While most Israelis agree that these are important subjects for life, there isn't - at least not to my knowledge - a view that people have a right to these particular things. Yes, we could not care any less about the UN's policies. The UN does not respect us, why should we respect it? Nonetheless, we do adhere to a number of UN policies. For example, every soldier in the IDF is required to carry on his person a copy of a list of human rights decided in the Geneva Convention, even though it is well-known here that if, God-forbid, we're captured in war, our particular enemies couldn't care less about the Geneva rights.

Now, we do have an Obligatory Education Law in Israel. It was one of the very first laws passed after the State was created. However, at the same time, a provisionary law was passed which allowed the creation of the Independent Education System for the Ultra-Orthodox community. Why would such a provision be made? This echoes back to a debate I had some time ago with another member here on a completely different topic, but the gist was the same: He, like most people in the West, thought that the concept of individual human rights was a given. I explained to him that within Orthodox Judaism (and also many communities in other denominations), this is not quite a given. It is up to the general community to decide what is right for the individuals. You may argue all you want, but this is one of the basics of Jewish society that has enabled us to survive through thick and thin.

While the Jewish State is mostly secular, it does have a certain awareness of this idea. For this, the State enabled the creation of different types of schools that all have to adhere a certain minimum of state-sanctioned studies and the rest of school day is taken up by subjects chosen by the school or communal school system. The Independent System has to adhere to the smallest required minimum, because the emphasis of the Ultra-Orthodox community is religious studies. The State is well aware that an attempt to enforce a greater minimum of secular studies is practically suicide in terms of backlash from the Ultra-Orthodox community, and they wouldn't adhere by force to these things anyway. That's part of their mentality, and speaking from a Jewish perspective, it's not such a crazy mentality, considering all we've been through. So long as there are socio-theological-political clashes between the Ultra-Orthodox and the secular or liberal religious Israelis, the Ultra-Orthodox will live with a kind of under-the-surface fear that "the paritz (Hebrew for provincial nobleman) is out to get them" - a deep-set hereditary diasporatic mentality; almost a fight-or-flight mentality, really.

As such, agreements were reached in the early years of the country to form the Independent System. This allows the State to sanction a certain minimum of secular studies while the community retains control of most of the school system and of the education of its children, not per any consensus by external, non-Jewish bodies that have historically (and even nowadays are still not so different, as is evident from this thread, it seems) almost always lacked sympathy for the Jewish style of education.

 

[Brickjectivity]

We have a similar arrangement in the US with the Amish. https://amishamerica.com/education/

They for religious reasons have different educational requirements than other citizens who are required to pass 12 years of public schooling and can get into trouble for truancy otherwise. In most of our states Amish stop schooling after grade 8.

 

[thomas t]

Thank you for your replies.

While most Israelis agree that these are important subjects for life, there isn't - at least not to my knowledge - a view that people have a right to these particular things.

the right to basic education, that's what article 26 UDoHR is about.
Math is part of this. Sex ed is part of this. And I think, English is, too.
Let me put it that way: if you don't like the UN, there is no other human rights body on this world that understands basic education as doing without knowledge in math, English and sex ed. Prove me wrong, if you can .

we're captured in war, our particular enemies couldn't care less about the Geneva rights.

they don't get to decide which human rights are right and which ones are "wrong".

I explained to him that within Orthodox Judaism (and also many communities in other denominations), this is not quite a given. It is up to the general community to decide what is right for the individuals. You may argue all you want, but this is one of the basics of Jewish society that has enabled us to survive through thick and thin.

human rights are a given.
It's nice to see how you went through thick and thin - and finally could claim your state. All of this is great. Actually, as many Christians are I'm pro Israel, and I see it as God's work to have led them back to their country.
The fact that you did survive does not rule out that you never did anything wrong, though.
Israelis are humans. The Israeli state is composed by humans. However, humans are prone to error. That's true for every human and every country comprised of humans.

If you did not keep human rights once, that's no reason to do it twice. One wrong turn doesn't require the next, in my opinion.

What you propose is cultural relativism with respect to human rights, if I get you right.
This is a reasoning often found in African societies that want to mutilate their girls - in the name of culture/ mentality or whatever the excuse may be.
Any girl in this world has a right to bodily integrity. As does any other human. Even the ones that have "the bad luck" of belonging to a community that thinks otherwise.
Mentality issues? ok. But not at the expense of integral parts of the vagina please.
Basic human rights for all please. NO to cultural relativism.
Bodily integrity first, mentality issues last.
Same with basic education: it must come first, all else must occupy the second rank in setting the priorities for private schools.

The state is entitled to set up a system in which private schools are allowed. Any state does so, I think. Nevertheless, basic education has to be taught therein. Children must not be dicriminated against just for attending a private school in a particular neighborhood.

The goals must be clear in this respect.

edited (typos)

 

[thomas t]

We have a similar arrangement in the US with the Amish. https://amishamerica.com/education/

They for religious reasons have different educational requirements than other citizens who are required to pass 12 years of public schooling and can get into trouble for truancy otherwise. In most of our states Amish stop schooling after grade 8.

But they do teach basic education.