Robbed of Faith ( people in the Bible)

[TEXASBULL]

One of the biggest sticklers in the Christian religion is "faith".

Without faith it is impossible to please God. We must have faith that Jesus died and rose again for our sins.

My question is this. How come numerous people in the Bible did not have to display the same kind of faith that we have to?

Moses got a burning bush that spoke, Abraham talked to God personally on the mountain, Peter saw Jesus walk on water, Paul got knocked off his donkey and a bright light spoke to him and even blinded his eyes.

Doesn't this seem like a cheap way out for those men? how easy would it be for you to believe if you had an experience like that? They are supposed to be the father of faith, but what I see as a bunch of people who got a head start on faith.

I mean how many of you out there, if you actually heard with your ears, saw a bright light or an angel visit you, or actually sell Jesus healed somebody or walk on water, would still have doubts?

It seems to me like every few pages in the Bible, God is doing some type of miracle that breaks scientific law. Yet he refuses to do one of those miracles for us today. He still wants us to believe and have the same faith that Peter had.

He wants us to be as fervent in our beliefs just by reading the stories in a book. Is that fair?

If God came down to you like he did Saul of Tarsus, knocks you off your donkey, blinded your eyes with a bright light, and spoke to you in an audible voice, wouldn't you also spend the rest of your life preaching about and talking about this God?

Christians want us to become the Disciples of Christ, but the disciples had unfair head start on the rest of us.

Discuss please

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I don't think that the disciples had an unfair head start.

First - the scriptures constantly talk about how dumb and faithless they were in the presence of the miracles and person of Christ. Seeing these miracles didn't help them any more than reading about it helps us.

Second - I'm glad I live in the 21st century America rather than 1st century Palestine under Roman rule living hand to mouth as a follower of a teacher rejected by everyone. At least now Jesus has a respectable following and we can share in the 2000 yr old theological and ecumenical tradition.

 

[indian tea]

maybe these biblical doubts were similar to a dark night of the soul...

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

I mean how many of you out there, if you actually heard with your ears, saw a bright light or an angel visit you, or actually sell Jesus healed somebody or walk on water, would still have doubts?

yes, i see incredible things every day with rational answers.
i've had plenty of hallucinations, i've seen a lot of lights, if an angel visited me i'd buy him a drink (but probably not let his pretentious attitude get to me), and if i saw someone walk on water i'd probably just assume it was a kriss angel wannabe.
i have an amazing doubt threshold.

If God came down to you like he did Saul of Tarsus, knocks you off your donkey, blinded your eyes with a bright light, and spoke to you in an audible voice, wouldn't you also spend the rest of your life preaching about and talking about this God?

no way. preaching the goodness of a guy who mugged me in the middle of the night? sike. i wonder if pepper spray works on an all-powerful god.


point being, there are obviously so many reasons that people have for believing in "the miraculous", yet most miracles throughout history have been deduced to having natural causes. auroras, ball lightning, lizards growing their tails back, tornadoes, rain/moon bows... all these things could easily make someone gasp in reverence to the agent behind them, until they are studied more closely. not to mention that our brains are like hallucination factories ready to pump out something totally unexplainable.

 

[JustWondering]

Since the Bible is a work of fiction I do not see any reason to get worked up about it. What does amaze me is how millions of otherwise intelligent, reasonable people continue to cling to myths and legends concocted by ancient goat herders.

 

[Zadok]

Since the Bible is a work of fiction I do not see any reason to get worked up about it. What does amaze me is how millions of otherwise intelligent, reasonable people continue to cling to myths and legends concocted by ancient goat herders.

Any fool can be a critic. Even I can criticize a post like yours. But what is the point? So you think the ancient myths and legends are so silly and unreasonable and unusable? Let’s hear your grand superior intelligent method of ending war and suffering. If anything, modern thinking has only made war worse and created suffering on a much grander scale.

Zadok

 

[PolyHedral]

Any fool can be a critic. Even I can criticize a post like yours. But what is the point? So you think the ancient myths and legends are so silly and unreasonable and unusable? Let’s hear your grand superior intelligent method of ending war and suffering.

Post-scarcity economics renders all non-social reasons for war or suffering moot. (Since we can't stop religious zealots going to war, or your neighbor annoying you. But depending on how abundant resources are, you could just move away.)

 

[JustWondering]

So you think the ancient myths and legends are so silly and unreasonable and unusable?

Yes.

Let’s hear your grand superior intelligent method of ending war and suffering.

As long as there are Humans there will be war.

If anything, modern thinking has only made war worse and created suffering on a much grander scale.

Then why not throw your computer away and become a quaker if that is what you truly believe?

 

[sojourner]

Since the Bible is a work of fiction I do not see any reason to get worked up about it. What does amaze me is how millions of otherwise intelligent, reasonable people continue to cling to myths and legends concocted by ancient goat herders.

Technically, the Bible isn't a work of fiction. It's a work of theology. What amazes me is how millions of otherwise intelligent, reasonable people continue to cling to myths and legends concocted by modern scientists, and then have to wander around thinking, "Is this all there is?"

 

[PolyHedral]

But they're not myths and legends. They're superbly accurate models of how the universe works, as demonstrated by your reading this post.

 

[sojourner]

But they're not myths and legends. They're superbly accurate models of how the universe works, as demonstrated by your reading this post.

Of course they are. The work of Albert Einstein has become mythic. The power of nuclear fission is legendary. Look at all the faux-cultic "E=MC2" crap you see on t-shirts and bumper stickers. And what about all the movies about a nuclear doomsday? Mythic and legendary.

 

[JustWondering]

Technically, the Bible isn't a work of fiction. It's a work of theology.

Of course the Bible is fiction. Do you really think an all-everything being would care if we ate pork or lobster? Would a just and good god not only condone slavery but the mistreatment of slaves as long as you did not kill them? Would a just and good god condone domestic violence? Would a just and good god create a place of eternal torture? The god of the bible makes no logical sense whatsoever and is obviously a human fabrication. I cannot say I have researched every religion, because I haven't. However, I have looked into all the major ones and they all come off as being produced by human imagination. That does not prove there is not some type of god(s) out there. But I have yet to hear anything convincing.

 

[sojourner]

Of course the Bible is fiction. Do you really think an all-everything being would care if we ate pork or lobster? Would a just and good god not only condone slavery but the mistreatment of slaves as long as you did not kill them? Would a just and good god condone domestic violence? Would a just and good god create a place of eternal torture? The god of the bible makes no logical sense whatsoever and is obviously a human fabrication. I cannot say I have researched every religion, because I haven't. However, I have looked into all the major ones and they all come off as being produced by human imagination. That does not prove there is not some type of god(s) out there. But I have yet to hear anything convincing.

The purpose of fiction is its entertainment value. There is nothing of the "entertaining" in the Bible. Its purpose is not to entertain, but to preserve how these people thought of themselves in relationship to God. Therefore, the Bible is a theological compendium, not a work of fiction.

If we get into the minds of the writers, then yes, an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God would care about the dietary habits of the people. Notice that the particular dietary constraints change in the course of the works, though.

Further, in their minds a good God would condone slavery in that culture and time. And a good God might condone domestic violence in their minds.

Not so sure God created hell. Not so sure the Bible condones people being sent there, either.

God makes no sense because you're not in the mind set of the ancient Middle-Eastern tribesman. Of course God is presented in the way the writers knew to present God. And we present God in the way we know how to present God. Not a human "fabrication," so much as an anthropomorphic representation by humans.

 

[JustWondering]

The purpose of fiction is its entertainment value. There is nothing of the "entertaining" in the Bible. Its purpose is not to entertain, but to preserve how these people thought of themselves in relationship to God. Therefore, the Bible is a theological compendium, not a work of fiction.

Fiction = untrue. The purpose of any given fictional story depends on what the writer is trying to accomplish.

If we get into the minds of the writers, then yes, an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God would care about the dietary habits of the people.

Is eating pork in the OT considered a sin? What is the punishment for sin again? Death, right?

Notice that the particular dietary constraints change in the course of the works, though.

The constraints did not really change. Christians just hijacked the Torah to try giving themselves some credibility.

Further, in their minds a good God would condone slavery in that culture and time. And a good God might condone domestic violence in their minds.

So your basically saying gods only exist in the mind of the believer? I can agree with that.

Not so sure God created hell. Not so sure the Bible condones people being sent there, either.

I am pretty sure it does. For clarification I am referring to the King James Bible.

God makes no sense because you're not in the mind set of the ancient Middle-Eastern tribesman.

And? I count that as a good thing.

Of course God is presented in the way the writers knew to present God. And we present God in the way we know how to present God. Not a human "fabrication," so much as an anthropomorphic representation by humans.

But if the representation is blatantly wrong shouldn't we get rid of it and start over instead of building upon past errors?

 

[crocusj]

Technically, the Bible isn't a work of fiction. It's a work of theology. What amazes me is how millions of otherwise intelligent, reasonable people continue to cling to myths and legends concocted by modern scientists, and then have to wander around thinking, "Is this all there is?"

While I care little of science as a philosophy...what do you mean is this all there is? Is the Universe and our world within it small potatoes? I cannot be as blase as you about the wonders I see and feel every day. Living without god does not mean living without inspiration or meaning or awe. This may be all but that does not mean its not plenty.