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Rural vs Urban Divide

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Most of the the political divides today are due to urban vs rural communities.

I grew up in a small village of about 300 people and my worldview fits that background. I support the nationstate, I support low levels of immigration, I support local businesses and don't expect to be surrounded by people speaking different languages to me. Everyone I know from these places shares these same beliefs, but I've noticed we're being maligned by liberal urbaners who are globalist, who believe in melting pots and universalism. Many rural people feel themselves the 'losers' in the globalist economy. It feels as though we are being mocked and punished for wanting a national identity, it feels especially hard to convince people that being 'English' is not a racist identity marker. Flying an English flag is not racist.

What can be done? These views are totally incompatible.


Across Europe too, there are signs that many different political systems are adapting to this new cleavage, and an increasingly spatially divided electoral geography is emerging (Agnew and Shin 2020; Hooghe and Marks 2018). France is a much-cited exemplar of this trend. There is a growing political divide between the large urban centres – ‘globalised’, ‘gentrified’, and increasingly inhabited by cosmopolitans and ‘bobos’ (bourgeois bohemians) – and the banlieues populated by immigrants of recent arrival, and the remaining medium and small-sized cities and rural areas, where longtime immigrants and the ‘white’ working classes experience economic decline and are increasingly disaffected with the political system (Bacqué et al. 2016; Cusin, Lefebvre, and Sigaud 2016; Eribon 2013; Foa et al. 2020; Guilluy 2016; Ivaldi and Gombin 2015).

Similarly, England has witnessed a gradual ‘bifurcation’ (Jennings and Stoker 2016) in political terms between people with higher education and good employment opportunities who live in metropolitan areas and those living in ‘backwater’ areas associated with economic decline, hostility to immigration and the EU, and a stronger sense of English identity (Garretsen et al. 2019; Kenny 2014, 2015). While there is a strong regional dimension to the geography of discontent in Britain (Garretsen et al. 2018; McCann 2016, 2019; Tyler et al. 2017), in the UK and elsewhere, the urban-rural fault-line has become increasingly prominent.

[...]

As an example, ‘typical’ ‘left-behind’ Brexit supporters have been described as “older, working-class, white voters […] who live on low incomes and lack the skills that are required to adapt and prosper amid the modern, post-industrial economy” (Goodwin and Heath, 2016, p. 325).


@Augustus
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm not convinced about the incompatibility. I'm about as far left as they come, but I am not a fan of globalization, urbanization, destruction of cultural diversity (e.g., melting pots). I'm a huge proponent of local culture, local food, local business... because it's sustainable in ways that the present aberration of globalization is not. The country will win in the end, because urbanity and globalization isn't sustainable. In fact, it doesn't even exist without the country. The two are interdependent, so how is it they're incompatible, exactly?
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm not convinced about the incompatibility. I'm about as far left as they come, but I am not a fan of globalization, urbanization, destruction of cultural diversity (e.g., melting pots). I'm a huge proponent of local culture, local food, local business... because it's sustainable in ways that the present aberration of globalization is not. The country will win in the end, because urbanity and globalization isn't sustainable. In fact, it doesn't even exist without the country. The two are interdependent, so how is it they're incompatible, exactly?
Social conservatism vs social liberalism.

There's a strong trend among people now to hate nationalism, nation-states, local identity etc.

A strong rural hatred of cosmopolitanism.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
And i thought the village i was dragged up in was small, pop about 1250. Raised on a farm in what was a tory stronghold (tories have just this year lost control to labor and greens) i should have been a staunch conservative but...

My parents were hippies (and to some extent, still are). They instilled in me care for land, animal and people along with fairly left wing values. The nation means little to me, why should one feel proud of where they were born? Immigration / melting pot, bring it on, the more the merrier. I interacted with many immigrant farm workers, the nearby town of Preston has one of the biggest Asian communities in the UK. Because of this, even though the north west was considered deprived i found it an exciting, vibrant place to be. But i think we agree on support for local businesses, it is after all the green alternative. And racism, i never considered it until i began dating a black guy. Being verbally abused, spat at, even attacked tends to teach that there is a powerful racist element alive and kicking (literally) in Britain.
 

Secret Chief

Degrow!
And i thought the village i was dragged up in was small, pop about 1250. Raised on a farm in what was a tory stronghold (tories have just this year lost control to labor and greens) i should have been a staunch conservative but...

My parents were hippies (and to some extent, still are). They instilled in me care for land, animal and people along with fairly left wing values. The nation means little to me, why should one feel proud of where they were born? Immigration / melting pot, bring it on, the more the merrier. I interacted with many immigrant farm workers, the nearby town of Preston has one of the biggest Asian communities in the UK. Because of this, even though the north west was considered deprived i found it an exciting, vibrant place to be. But i think we agree on support for local businesses, it is after all the green alternative. And racism, i never considered it until i began dating a black guy. Being verbally abused, spat at, even attacked tends to teach that there is a powerful racist element alive and kicking (literally) in Britain.
I lived and worked in schools in North Norfolk for a couple of years. The typical attitude of the adults from the villages was that going to Norwich would be like going to Sodom. Such an attitude seemed to be passed on to their children. Hopefully social media will have broadened their horizons since then.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Most of the the political divides today are due to urban vs rural communities.

I grew up in a small village of about 300 people and my worldview fits that background. I support the nationstate, I support low levels of immigration, I support local businesses and don't expect to be surrounded by people speaking different languages to me. Everyone I know from these places shares these same beliefs, but I've noticed we're being maligned by liberal urbaners who are globalist, who believe in melting pots and universalism. Many rural people feel themselves the 'losers' in the globalist economy. It feels as though we are being mocked and punished for wanting a national identity, it feels especially hard to convince people that being 'English' is not a racist identity marker. Flying an English flag is not racist.

What can be done? These views are totally incompatible.
Not really. In actual fact, you are a participant in both a local, a national, and a global community. And in actual fact its not some liberal city-dwellers that are threatening your way of life. It's the ever-increasing effect of human greed and ignorance on EVERY level of our community, thanks to modern technology and the constant increase in our numbers. I think you're letting some bad politicians, priests, and/or media blowhards convince you that it's all those nasty urbanites doing the dirt. But it's not.

Across Europe too, there are signs that many different political systems are adapting to this new cleavage, and an increasingly spatially divided electoral geography is emerging (Agnew and Shin 2020; Hooghe and Marks 2018). France is a much-cited exemplar of this trend. There is a growing political divide between the large urban centres – ‘globalised’, ‘gentrified’, and increasingly inhabited by cosmopolitans and ‘bobos’ (bourgeois bohemians) – and the banlieues populated by immigrants of recent arrival, and the remaining medium and small-sized cities and rural areas, where longtime immigrants and the ‘white’ working classes experience economic decline and are increasingly disaffected with the political system (Bacqué et al. 2016; Cusin, Lefebvre, and Sigaud 2016; Eribon 2013; Foa et al. 2020; Guilluy 2016; Ivaldi and Gombin 2015).

Similarly, England has witnessed a gradual ‘bifurcation’ (Jennings and Stoker 2016) in political terms between people with higher education and good employment opportunities who live in metropolitan areas and those living in ‘backwater’ areas associated with economic decline, hostility to immigration and the EU, and a stronger sense of English identity (Garretsen et al. 2019; Kenny 2014, 2015). While there is a strong regional dimension to the geography of discontent in Britain (Garretsen et al. 2018; McCann 2016, 2019; Tyler et al. 2017), in the UK and elsewhere, the urban-rural fault-line has become increasingly prominent.

[...]

As an example, ‘typical’ ‘left-behind’ Brexit supporters have been described as “older, working-class, white voters […] who live on low incomes and lack the skills that are required to adapt and prosper amid the modern, post-industrial economy” (Goodwin and Heath, 2016, p. 325).


@Augustus
Because we continue to pretend that human greed is some sort of virtue that deserves to be rewarded, the negative effects of it continues to spread. And it is effecting everyone, now, all across the world. Not just those in your local community.
 

The Hammer

Skald
Premium Member
I lived and worked in schools in North Norfolk for a couple of years. The typical attitude of the adults from the villages was that going to Norwich would be like going to Sodom. Such an attitude seemed to be passed on to their children. Hopefully social media will have broadened their horizons since then.

I've noticed this same ideology in the little town I moved to too. And the nearest big town (25 mins away) is constantly maligned, and seen as a decrepit pit. You can see it every time they role their eyes and say "I've got to go into the city :rolleyes:"
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I lived and worked in schools in North Norfolk for a couple of years. The typical attitude of the adults from the villages was that going to Norwich would be like going to Sodom. Such an attitude seemed to be passed on to their children. Hopefully social media will have broadened their horizons since then.

A Norfolk guy was referred to a psychiatrist by his GP. When the GP received the report he was stumped by the acronym NFN so telephoned the psychiatrist. "I have just received your report and cannot figure the meaning of NFN,"
The psychiatrist replied Normal For Norfolk"

It is a valid medical term.

Normal for Norfolk - Wikipedia
 

Secret Chief

Degrow!
A Norfolk guy was referred to a psychiatrist by his GP. When the GP received the report he was stumped by the acronym NFN so telephoned the psychiatrist. "I have just received your report and cannot figure the meaning of NFN,"
The psychiatrist replied Normal For Norfolk"

It is a valid medical term.

Normal for Norfolk - Wikipedia
Ha! Yes I was told this when I was there!
It was quite weird in other ways. It is the "whitest" county yet had the highest population %age membership of the BNP. And due to the relatively isolated nature of the county, it historically had the highest percentage of....er....close....family.... marriages. Hence another joke I was told: "Have you met my wife, my sister?" (Like NFN, also told to me by a Norfolk resident).
Naturally, being a devil-worshiping drug dealer I loved Norwich. Best pub in England!
 
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Secret Chief

Degrow!
I've noticed this same ideology in the little town I moved to too. And the nearest big town (25 mins away) is constantly maligned, and seen as a decrepit pit. You can see it every time they role their eyes and say "I've got to go into the city :rolleyes:"
Merely visiting Norwich for the day was likely to result in immediate heroin addiction. :rolleyes:
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
There's a strong trend among people now to hate nationalism, nation-states, local identity etc.

A strong rural hatred of cosmopolitanism.
I haven't noticed either of these things in my area or my country.

I mean, if I want to really reach, I could claim that the dysfunction of my country's government is caused by hating the very concept of the nation-state or something, but that's a completely baseless claim I just pulled out of my rear just now. :shrug:
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Most of the the political divides today are due to urban vs rural communities.

I grew up in a small village of about 300 people and my worldview fits that background. I support the nationstate, I support low levels of immigration, I support local businesses and don't expect to be surrounded by people speaking different languages to me. Everyone I know from these places shares these same beliefs, but I've noticed we're being maligned by liberal urbaners who are globalist, who believe in melting pots and universalism. Many rural people feel themselves the 'losers' in the globalist economy. It feels as though we are being mocked and punished for wanting a national identity, it feels especially hard to convince people that being 'English' is not a racist identity marker. Flying an English flag is not racist.
Well, I've lived back and forth in both kinds of places, which I think gave me a sense of the difference early in life. The city dwellers, to me, seemed hip, cold, and occupied, and in country, it seemed like everyone wanted to talk. It was no one knows no one vs. everyone knows everyone.

At this point, I think there is a misunderstanding of the macro situation on both sides of that divide, as well as in different class structures. The suburban classification might complicate the picture, as these are the people who awkwardly try to get the best of both words. Their own growth however, seems to end up collapsing such a vision

Workers with high-value careers in the city think they 'pay' for the rest of the state via taxes, and rural people think they pay for the city, or don't need it

I think a key issue in globalism is how it seems to spin the value of property. Perhaps a population comes to think that it no longer needs a local resource located in certain areas, and so then it develops those areas in a residential or urban fashion. For example, if soil fertility in a place is incredible, but shipping price for food has decreased to an incredibly low level, a population then might think it wise to develop local land, even if it has a particularly high level of agricultural potential.

As to immigration, I think there ends up being a wage competition thing with that

I don't dislike immigrants, but I think voting to moderate it more might re-stabilize certain standards between the workers and the employers. After all, after a few generations here, the descendants of the immigrants would come to expect more out of that condition, to bring things into balance with the expectation that was already there, by native populations that are more likely to hold the worker / employer relationship to higher scrutiny.

Both the right and the left like immigration: the right likes it for temp labor, and the left lets them in out of mercy, because the people immigrating are obviously often seeking a better situation for themselves

I must add that I also do have a certain admiration for the immigrants here, that I have worked with over the years. Coming from the suburban situation that I came from, failing college twice, and dropping out to work in the factory, has been seen, in my context, to be more akin to being a failure, rather than being an acceptable situation. I was told by friends and family not to marry, that it wouldn't be likely that I'd have a house. The expectation, in the very elite public school that I came from, was that you became a doctor or lawyer or something

There are reasons I like immigrants, because I have not detected this sense of necessity to outdo a more foundational situation, surely that has been with all of humankind for their 100 or 200,000 year history. That is to say, they seem to find manual labor as being socially acceptable, and often even come to work as couples.

But I could blather on overlong if I were describe, to expand my macro view of the situation even more, what I thought the concept of production really is, or what should be done with it. For example, in the view that I have developed, I think that ideally, workers should control the rate of production. Not the means of production, but the rate of production.

The means of production are such that you can produce a massive amount of anything, at almost any local point on the world. In order to start questioning the infinite growth models, I think we finally have to start asking how much of anything is actually needed, thus rate needs control
 
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