Russia losing the war.

[Revoltingest]

...a puppet government that is beholden to US interests. Zelensky is an actor who seems to have been groomed for the role of Ukrainian president, and he's putting on his greatest performance yet - that he's actually a leader of a sovereign "democratic" nation and not a US intelligence asset leading a corrupt government in cahoots with extremists. Ukraine is a mess, and the poorest country in Europe. Russia could actually just roll right over them if they wanted to, so that's obviously not what this is really about.

I find it very hard to believe that Putin could easily
win this war, but is refusing to commit the resources.
For what reason would he wage an invasion in such
a failing manner?
As for Zelensky being a puppet, his people sure are
more more motivated to defend Ukraine than Russian
soldiers are to win.
The best explanation is that Ukrainians are united in
defense of their country, while the Russian conventional
military is hollow & unmotivated.

 

[Kooky]

I also find it ironic for American right-wingers to mock a foreign president for having been an actor, when two of the most popular right-wing US presidents of the recent past were an actor and a reality TV host respectively.

 

[Suave]

Didn't they "freely" elect to be annexed by Russia, after eight years of rule by pro-Russian militias bankrolled by the Putin regime, much like the people of Austria had "freely" elected to be annexed into Nazi Germany, after being invaded by Nazi Germany a month prior?

Please let us consider a United Nations sanctioned election whereby the citizens of Donetsk and Luhansk without any undue duress freely vote for establishing a sovereign state independent of Ukraine.

 

[Shaul]

Perhaps we could agree with the people of Donetsk and Luhansk democratically voting on being independent states., As far as Crimea goes, it has historic ties to Russia

Not really so much. Historically speaking the Crimea was home to Tartars and Ukrainians until Russians ethnically cleansed it.

 

[Shaul]

I also find it ironic for American right-wingers to mock a foreign president for having been an actor, when two of the most popular right-wing US presidents of the recent past were an actor and a reality TV host respectively.

Some of the other Presidents were clowns.

 

[Suave]

Not really so much. Historically speaking the Crimea was home to Tartars and Ukrainians until Russians ethnically cleansed it.

Mar 17, 2014 · Крымчане проголосовали за присоединение к России. Тысячи крымчан вышли на улицы полуострова и праздновали ...

Mar 17, 2014 · Crimeans voted to join Russia. Thousands of Crimeans took to the streets of the peninsula and celebrated ...

 

[Kooky]

Mar 17, 2014 · Крымчане проголосовали за присоединение к России. Тысячи крымчан вышли на улицы полуострова и праздновали ...

Mar 17, 2014 · Crimeans voted to join Russia. Thousands of Crimeans took to the streets of the peninsula and celebrated ...

April 10, 1938: The overwhelming majority of Austrian citizens voted to join Greater Germany.
Thousands of Austrians celebrated in Vienna:

 

[Revoltingest]

Mar 17, 2014 · Крымчане проголосовали за присоединение к России. Тысячи крымчан вышли на улицы полуострова и праздновали ...

Mar 17, 2014 · Crimeans voted to join Russia. Thousands of Crimeans took to the streets of the peninsula and celebrated ...

Interesting....
That was right after Russia invaded & took over the government.

Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation - Wikipedia
Excerpted...
. On 27 February, masked Russian troops without insignia[41] took over the Supreme Council (parliament) of Crimea[42][43] and captured strategic sites across Crimea. This led to the installation of the pro-Russian Sergey Aksyonov government in Crimea, the conducting of the Crimean status referendum and the declaration of Crimea's independence on 16 March 2014.[44][45] Russia formally incorporated Crimea as two Russian federal subjects—the Republic of Crimea and the federal city of Sevastopol on 18 March 2014.[46][47][note 2] Following the annexation, Russia escalated military presence on the peninsula and leveraged nuclear threats to solidify the new status quo on the ground.[49]

 

[Shaul]

Mar 17, 2014 · Крымчане проголосовали за присоединение к России. Тысячи крымчан вышли на улицы полуострова и праздновали ...

Mar 17, 2014 · Crimeans voted to join Russia. Thousands of Crimeans took to the streets of the peninsula and celebrated ...

That doesn’t contradict what I wrote. The Russians ethnically cleansed the Crimea decades ago. That the ethnic Russians they supplanted the indigenous peoples with voted to join Russia supports my point. It doesn’t disprove it.

 

[Suave]

Interesting....
That was right after Russia invaded & took over the government.

Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation - Wikipedia
Excerpted...
. On 27 February, masked Russian troops without insignia[41] took over the Supreme Council (parliament) of Crimea[42][43] and captured strategic sites across Crimea. This led to the installation of the pro-Russian Sergey Aksyonov government in Crimea, the conducting of the Crimean status referendum and the declaration of Crimea's independence on 16 March 2014.[44][45] Russia formally incorporated Crimea as two Russian federal subjects—the Republic of Crimea and the federal city of Sevastopol on 18 March 2014.[46][47][note 2] Following the annexation, Russia escalated military presence on the peninsula and leveraged nuclear threats to solidify the new status quo on the ground.[49]

"... years have passed since the reunification of Crimea with Russia, but Western countries continue to challenge the ‘annexation’ of Crimea by the Russian Federation ignoring the legitimate will of the people of Crimea, which they expressed on 16 March 2014.

It should be borne in mind that the sovereignty of the then Autonomous Republic of Crimea was proclaimed on September 11,1991. According to section 10 of the Ukrainian Constitution of 1996, the territory of Crimea is covered by the autonomous legal status, which is legally applied to the rights of peoples. According to Article 138.2 of this section of the Ukrainian Constitution, in particular the jurisdiction of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea includes ‘the organization and conduct of local referendums’, while the possible subject of such referendums is not limited to this special ‘Crimean’ section of the Constitution.

The actions of the Crimean authorities given the conditions prevailing in Ukraine at the time were of a legal nature. On March 17, 2014 on the basis of a referendum (96.77% with a turnout of 83.1% voted for the reunion of the Crimea with Russia) and the independent sovereign Republic of Crimea was proclaimed.

As for Sevastopol, it should be noted that as early as 29 October 1948 it was separated from the Crimean region and subordinated directly to the Soviet authorities by the decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of RSFSR (Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic). The Crimean region in violation of the Constitution of the USSR, RSFSR and Ukraine was illegally transferred to Ukraine in 1954. The de facto inclusion of the city of Sevastopol (Article 133 of the Ukrainian Constitution) into Ukraine was not based on any normative acts of Russia on its transfer to Ukraine and was nothing more than a unilateral decision of Ukraine which should be considered from a legal point of view as the seizure of a foreign territory by Ukraine. The referendum conducted on March 16, 2017 in Sevastopol reaffirmed that fact (95,6% with a turnout of 89,5% voted for the reunion of the Crimea with Russia) and gained its special status.

The referendum conducted on March 16, 2014 with the attendance of more than 150 observers in connection with a coup d'état and the seizure of power in Kiev became the realization of the right of people to self-determination. Until March 16, 2014, the Autonomous Republic of Crimea existed in the form of autonomy within Ukraine, which had its own Constitution adopted on October 21, 1998. Article 48 of this Constitution, entitled Guarantees and Provision of Status and Powers of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, presupposes that these guarantees are provided by democratic institutions of the society including the conduct of a referendum on any substantive question to the citizens.

In addition, it should be borne in mind that the preamble of the Ukrainian Constitution also refers to the recognition and ascertainment of the right of the Ukrainian peoples to self-determination. This Constitution also guarantees the people's will through a referendum in accordance with Article 69, while the purpose of the referendum is defined as a manifestation of one of the forms of direct democracy.

The peoples of Crimea saw protection only in self-determination and reunification with the historical Motherland, where it was for about two hundred years (starting from April 8, 1783 after the Empress Ekaterina II signing the manifesto on accepting the Crimea peninsula into the Russian Empire)."

THE LEGITIMATE CASE FOR THE RECOGNITION OF CRIMEA | Association of Accredited Public Policy Advocates to the European Union (aalep.eu)

THE LEGITIMATE CASE FOR THE RECOGNITION OF CRIMEA
THE LEGITIMATE CASE FOR THE RECOGNITION OF CRIMEA
SUBMITTED BY CHRISTIAN ON MON, 09/11/2017 - 11:54

 

[Revoltingest]

"... years have passed since the reunification of Crimea with Russia, but Western countries continue to challenge the ‘annexation’ of Crimea by the Russian Federation ignoring the legitimate will of the people of Crimea, which they expressed on 16 March 2014.

All after Russia invaded & took over the government.
Color me skeptical that this was the "will of the people".
Putin apologists....have they any shame?
It appears not.

 

[Suave]

All after Russia invaded & took over the government.
Color me skeptical that this was the "will of the people".
Putin apologists....have they any shame?
It appears not.

That doesn’t contradict what I wrote. The Russians ethnically cleansed the Crimea decades ago. That the ethnic Russians they supplanted the indigenous peoples with voted to join Russia supports my point. It doesn’t disprove it.

Tatars settled in Crimea during the 15th century before the Russian Empire annexed the peninsula in 1783 under the rule of Empress Catherine the Great, forcing the Tatars to flee Crimea, thereby enabling Russian culture to fflourish there.

 

[Revoltingest]

Tatars settled in Crimea during the 15th century before the Russian Empire annexed the peninsula in 1783 under the rule of Empress Catherine the Great, forcing the Tatars to flee Crimea, thereby enabling Russian culture to fflourish there.

So the Russians stole Crimea once before, eh.

 

[Kooky]

Tatars settled in Crimea during the 15th century before the Russian Empire annexed the peninsula in 1783 under the rule of Empress Catherine the Great, forcing the Tatars to flee Crimea, thereby enabling Russian culture to fflourish there.

So what you're telling us is that Crimea should be independent and not, in fact, a part of Russia at all.

 

[Suave]

So what you're telling us is that Crimea should be independent and not, in fact, a part of Russia at all.

I respect the Crimeans having exercised their right to self determination by voting for Crimea to join with Russia.

 

[Kooky]

I respect the Crimeans having exercised their right to self determination by voting for Crimea to join with Russia.

So you respect the Russians having exercised their right to force a vote in their favor at gunpoint.

Do you think the Austrians were wrongly forced into independence after WW2?

 

[Suave]

So you respect the Russians having exercised their right to force a vote in their favor at gunpoint.

Do you think the Austrians were wrongly forced into independence after WW2?

As far as I know,, there were no Crimeans coerced in any way to vote for Crimea joining Russia, I presume Crimeans freely voted on their own volition to have Crimea annexed by Russia.

IAs far as I Know, most Austrians agree with the Austrian State Treaty re-establishing a sovereign democratic Austria, nation. The Austrian State Treaty is based on the Moscow Declaration of October 30th1943. This agreement provided for concessions of Soviet oilfields and property rights of oil refineries in Eastern Austria and the transfer of the assets of the Danube Shipping Company to the USSR.

Ветер перемен

 

[Suave]

So what you're telling us is that Crimea should be independent and not, in fact, a part of Russia at all.

Крым принадлежит России!

 

[Kooky]

IAs far as I Know, most Austrians agree with the Austrian State Treaty re-establishing a sovereign democratic Austria, nation.

No referendum has ever been scheduled to answer that question, so how would you know that?

Are you saying that because you saw pictures of people cheering?
People cheered when Austria joined Nazi Germany, too.

 

[Suave]

No referendum has ever been scheduled to answer that question, so how would you know that?

Are you saying that because you saw pictures of people cheering?
People cheered when Austria joined Nazi Germany, too.

When most people of a People's Democratic Republic are content with the status quo territorial sovereignty of their nation, therein lacks any movement towards a referendum on changing the Democratic People's Republic's national sovereignty. Hence, because here is no movement towards such a referendum on behalf of Austrian electors to vote either fon or against surrending their nation's sovereignty, I thereby presume most Austrian citizens are content with the current status of their nation's sovereignty.