Sacrifice

[EyeofOdin]

A lot of people seem to believe that there's a lot of controversy around sacrifice, and I just wanted to put my two cents in.

I could go out into the forest, pick natural fruits and nuts, present them as an offering, and the effort I put into gathering the food is a sacrifice. The controversy specifically is around animal sacrifice.

In my opinion this is a fundamental part of engaged, indigenous spirituality. Our ancestors, when they wanted to commune with the gods and spirits, they either presented offerings or, on special occasions, an animal killed during the ritual. This wasn't just in Europe, but all around the world.

I would like to note that most of the people condemning animals sacrifice, they're not vegans, vegetarians etc. so while they're eating their hamburgers, chicken wings and steaks, they're telling me that it's inappropriate to give an animal as an offering. Really? So all of a sudden the gods are vegetarians?

When we buy meat, we usually get it in these neat little packages, cut into these pieces that all look the same, and we don't think of it as being once apart of an animal. We think of it as a product from a factory. Even most of our vocabulary avoids calling beef "cow", or calling pork "boar" or "pig". Just because you call your fowl meat "chicken breast" doesn't mean that it didn't house a heart, vital organs, hatched from an egg, lived, had relationships and died. Sure we "know" this, but we disconnect ourselves from it. Once you take an animal, take it before an altar, cut off its head, present it to the gods, and do what is traditionally done, eat it after the ritual, it will make you look at food in an entirely new light.

This video is an instructional about how to butcher chickens, but I've put it here to show what it can do to a person to humanely (or at least as humanely as possible) slaughter an animal for food.

[youtube]5_S3P0eU0lE[/youtube]
respectful chicken harvest part 1 of 2 kill and pluck - how to - YouTube

I also feel that giving a sacrifice shows hospitality. If you invite an old and dear friend into your home, and ask "what would you like?" and he or she says "I'd like a pizza and a glass of juice" then you reply "well I have that, and I actually have plenty of pizza and orange juice, but I feel like giving you crackers and tap water". Is that showing hospitality?

You have a deity, a god(dess), coming into your life, offering you wisdom, power and knowledge, and in return you give him or her a gift that's completely short of what he or she wanted and of what was available to you at the time? At the very least, that's not good manners.

I would like to lastly add that I believe that the gods are reasonable. Most people in urban settings can't go down to a local farm and buy a goat or duck to sacrifice in their apartment. Asking someone with little to no resources to sacrifice a live animal would be like an adult asking a child for a new tv for Christmas.

 

[Sees]

I don't have any issue with animal sacrifice even as a vegan My issues definitely stay around factory farming and people eating meat who would not have the will or abilities to trap, hunt, kill, etc. themselves.

Sacrifice involving consecration, honor, relationship, etc. is the way to do it if we do it. Even without a ritual taking place that is where the state of mind/heart/soul should be.

 

[Contemplative Cat]

If were gonna kill something we might as well kill it's as a sacrifice to God(s)

Ever since the book of Genesis many look down
on vegi offerings because of what happened with cain

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't have a problem with animal sacrifice if done humanely. It just ain't for me.

 

[Quintessence]

I suspect that the contemporary taboos regarding non-human animal sacrifice are due to a combination of the mainstream religion strongly condemning the practice and Hollywood creating an absurdly inaccurate image in the minds of most of the ritual. There is an order of magnitude more honor and respect in your typical non-human animal sacrifice ritual than there is in the slaughterhouses our food comes from. It's really quite depressing.

 

[StarryNightshade]

My biggest issue is that the animal will be treated cruelly and inhumanely. There have been allegations of animal offerings just being left out to rot in the open, rather than being used of properly. That truly upsets me, because it shows a blatant disrespect for the animal.

I guess my squeamishness comes from my Western/Christian upbringing and from my two years as a practicing Buddhist. That, and the fact I'm surrounded by a bunch of hard science individuals who view this stuff as stupid superstitions.

 

[Sees]

You can't relate it to what you understand about sacrifice from an Abrahamic faith background...whole different concepts going on.

Our sacrifices are about shared feasts with each other, Gods, ancestors, etc. They represent our shared and interconnected life in general.

The burnt and blood sacrifices to Yahweh are nothing similar and the accounts from others concerning Indigenous traditions animal and human sacrifices and the meaning behind what did/does take place is mostly bullcrap.

If you see it through a different lens sure you will think it is primitive, superstitious, cruel, etc. That is out of ignorance.

*post moderated*

 

[Contemplative Cat]

why pick on Christians, you used to be Catholic. If they are preaching then people just ignore them.

Since it doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it wont work for another, Mr. Diablo.

When I was fourteen I was a theistic satanists with nearly identical beliefs as you. It didn't work, but I'm not gonna throw it in your face.

 

[Sees]

why pick on Christians, you used to be Catholic. If they are preaching then people just ignore them.

Since it doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it wont work for another, Mr. Diablo.

When I was fourteen I was a theistic satanists with nearly identical beliefs as you. It didn't work, but I'm not gonna throw it in your face.

Doesn't seem picking on anybody to me. If people need correcting why not? The folks who like to go on various DIR as if they have the secrets of all truths, special goodness, wisdom of the ages, yada yada should be addressed. It's a kindness to everybody and a respectful thing.

 

[Nyingjé Tso]

Vanakkam

Animal sacrifice is still widely practiced in many countries of the world for a variety of beliefs. I have seen many times people of tribes sacrificing an animal when welcoming a guest, or for the communty welfare.

I think EyeOfOdin post is very true about how to welcome a guest properly. If your guest would like something, then you offer him this thing. It's being polite and welcoming. It's showing a great respect and opening doors to a cordial relationship.

I would like to add some more however, from what I have observed, that there is also another kind of sacrifice. Relationships between human and spirits, Gods, etc... Have alway been like a trade. There is always a trade. You cannot ask to receive something if you do not give. Animal sacrifice have always been a very meaningful and high price for a trade with a God or Spirit. Why ? Think of tribes of ancient time, and it is the same for the remaining traditional tribes today: animals are precious ressources. It is a source of meat, cloth, tools, etc... It is essential for survival, and also very fragile. Offering a goat, or a cow, or a chicken, is a great sacrifice in this way. It shows that the tribe, or devotee, show full respect, devotion and confidence to seal or renew a deal with the God, Godess or Spirit.

I am not against animal sacrifice, as surprising as it may sound. Sacrifice have always been necessary, at all levels in human history. Death is part of life, and we have to accept it.

However I am against suffering. It is unecessary. Cutting troats or non mortal wounds bring much suffering to the animal, and it is a pain to see. I personally believe it completely void the sacrifice, since we are not offering the flesh, bones and hide of a healthy animal, but his suffering and cries. Suffering stay attached to the flesh, even after death. Offering a sacrifice tainted by terror, suffering and disfigured is like giving a rotten offering. If you don't show respect for the sacrifice, then you are not showing respect to the God/Godess/Spirit.

I've seen many tribes killing the animal quickly and without suffering with a particular technique, where the animal faint, and then die quickly of asphyxia while being "asleep". It was very quick and painless.

 

[Knight of Albion]

You can't relate it to what you understand about sacrifice from an Abrahamic faith background...whole different concepts going on.

Our sacrifices are about shared feasts with each other, Gods, ancestors, etc. They represent our shared and interconnected life in general.

The burnt and blood sacrifices to Yahweh are nothing similar and the accounts from others concerning Indigenous traditions animal and human sacrifices and the meaning behind what did/does take place is mostly bullcrap.

If you see it through a different lens sure you will think it is primitive, superstitious, cruel, etc. That is out of ignorance.

Thank you. I see your point. Though these things did happen. Animal and human sacrifice, both were 'traditions' in numerous cultures at one time.
Tradition doesn't make it right though does it. No matter what faith one follows one should always seek a better, higher way. Spiritual evolution, that's why we're all here.

I can see what you mean about communal feasts and suchlike. That to my mind though is something different from an out and out sacrifice to appease the gods.

Back in ancient times, certainly in the Middle East/Arabia, societies were broadly pastoral societies. The sacrifice of animals was essentially a sharing of wealth, between the haves and the have nots.
(Tithing is a form of 'sacrifice'.)

Such things may have had a valid place and purpose at that time. Though that doesn't mean they're relevant to the present day.

Life is a continuum. All people survive 'death' so whatever religion one does or does not follow... I have no problem with anyone on that, though as I said, we should all be looking for a higher way.

On a personal level, interested to see you're a vegan! As I am.

 

[EyeofOdin]

Vanakkam

Animal sacrifice is still widely practiced in many countries of the world for a variety of beliefs. I have seen many times people of tribes sacrificing an animal when welcoming a guest, or for the communty welfare.

I think EyeOfOdin post is very true about how to welcome a guest properly. If your guest would like something, then you offer him this thing. It's being polite and welcoming. It's showing a great respect and opening doors to a cordial relationship.

I would like to add some more however, from what I have observed, that there is also another kind of sacrifice. Relationships between human and spirits, Gods, etc... Have alway been like a trade. There is always a trade. You cannot ask to receive something if you do not give. Animal sacrifice have always been a very meaningful and high price for a trade with a God or Spirit. Why ? Think of tribes of ancient time, and it is the same for the remaining traditional tribes today: animals are precious ressources. It is a source of meat, cloth, tools, etc... It is essential for survival, and also very fragile. Offering a goat, or a cow, or a chicken, is a great sacrifice in this way. It shows that the tribe, or devotee, show full respect, devotion and confidence to seal or renew a deal with the God, Godess or Spirit.

I am not against animal sacrifice, as surprising as it may sound. Sacrifice have always been necessary, at all levels in human history. Death is part of life, and we have to accept it.

However I am against suffering. It is unecessary. Cutting troats or non mortal wounds bring much suffering to the animal, and it is a pain to see. I personally believe it completely void the sacrifice, since we are not offering the flesh, bones and hide of a healthy animal, but his suffering and cries. Suffering stay attached to the flesh, even after death. Offering a sacrifice tainted by terror, suffering and disfigured is like giving a rotten offering. If you don't show respect for the sacrifice, then you are not showing respect to the God/Godess/Spirit.

I've seen many tribes killing the animal quickly and without suffering with a particular technique, where the animal faint, and then die quickly of asphyxia while being "asleep". It was very quick and painless.

The cuts and the fatal wounds must be made quickly and cleanly. If not the animal will suffer and I believe that the offering is compromised. I wouldn't think that the gods would be happy with an offering that was tormented in its last moments of life. Rather, the best the animal is treated, the better the offering. This is a vessel carrying the love and devotion of the practitioner(s) to the realms of the gods and the realms of the spirits, it should be treated with respect, gratitude and honor.

 

[EyeofOdin]

Thank you. I see your point. Though these things did happen. Animal and human sacrifice, both were 'traditions' in numerous cultures at one time.
Tradition doesn't make it right though does it. No matter what faith one follows one should always seek a better, higher way. Spiritual evolution, that's why we're all here.

I can see what you mean about communal feasts and suchlike. That to my mind though is something different from an out and out sacrifice to appease the gods.

Back in ancient times, certainly in the Middle East/Arabia, societies were broadly pastoral societies. The sacrifice of animals was essentially a sharing of wealth, between the haves and the have nots.
(Tithing is a form of 'sacrifice'.)

Such things may have had a valid place and purpose at that time. Though that doesn't mean they're relevant to the present day.

Life is a continuum. All people survive 'death' so whatever religion one does or does not follow... I have no problem with anyone on that, though as I said, we should all be looking for a higher way.

On a personal level, interested to see you're a vegan! As I am.

Something needed to understand is that human sacrifice was rare and not widely practiced in the rare periods of times that it was. There were two extremes, one where slaves were sacrificed, such as in Rome, where it was the equivalent as sacrificing a pet dog, and sacrificing willing volunteers, as seen in other European tribes. Although I DON'T condone human sacrifice, I still think that it's a beautiful thing to see someone willingly be an offering to the gods, to say "yes, I want the honor of being the vessel of worship from my people".

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Ever since the book of Genesis many look down
on vegi offerings because of what happened with cain

I agree that if one must slaughter or asphyxiate an animal, it would be more proper for it to be done in a proper, ritualistic manner rather than in a slaughter house where animals are treated as nothing more than food, but a mythological story from the Bible is going to encourage you to slaughter animals for a deity? Sorry, I'm not buying it. Any "deity" (like Yahweh) who delights in the pain of another creature is not worth worshiping in my opinion. In the past, animal sacrifices might have been appropriate, but during this fallen age, animal sacrifices are wrong. In jaina dharma, a tAmasika diet is strictly prohibited; in bauddha dharma, ahiMsA is stressed; and in many Hindu sampradAya-s, vegetarianism is also encouraged (in fact, medieval AchArya-s like madhva and rAmAnuja advocated the sacrificed of piShTapashu-s in vedic yaj~na-s during the kaliyuga rather than an actual animal).
Also, in Hinduism, even though the shruti scriptures do recommend the sacrifice of animals in yaj~na-s, the shatapatha brAhmaNam discourages unnecessarily harming others (sa gÁrhapatyamúpatiShThata úpa tvAgne divé dive dóShAvastardhiyÁ vayam namo bháranta émasÍti náma evÀsmA etátkaroti yáthainaM ná hiMsyAt) and so too does the R^igveda, which speaks against even harming the roots of plants (puShpaphalopagAn pAdapAn na hiMsyAt).

 

[EyeofOdin]

I agree that if one must slaughter or asphyxiate an animal, it would be more proper for it to be done in a proper, ritualistic manner rather than in a slaughter house where animals are treated as nothing more than food, but a mythological story from the Bible is going to encourage you to slaughter animals for a deity? Sorry, I'm not buying it. Any "deity" (like Yahweh) who delights in the pain of another creature is not worth worshiping in my opinion. In the past, animal sacrifices might have been appropriate, but during this fallen age, animal sacrifices are wrong. In jaina dharma, a tAmasika diet is strictly prohibited; in bauddha dharma, ahiMsA is stressed; and in many Hindu sampradAya-s, vegetarianism is also encouraged (in fact, medieval AchArya-s like madhva and rAmAnuja advocated the sacrificed of piShTapashu-s in vedic yaj~na-s during the kaliyuga rather than an actual animal).
Also, in Hinduism, even though the shruti scriptures do recommend the sacrifice of animals in yaj~na-s, the shatapatha brAhmaNam discourages unnecessarily harming others (sa gÁrhapatyamúpatiShThata úpa tvAgne divé dive dóShAvastardhiyÁ vayam namo bháranta émasÍti náma evÀsmA etátkaroti yáthainaM ná hiMsyAt) and so too does the R^igveda, which speaks against even harming the roots of plants (puShpaphalopagAn pAdapAn na hiMsyAt).

I feel that when sacrificing, it is extremely important that the animal goes peacefully and with as little pain or stress as possible. Let's be honest, it's dying, there's going to be some stress involved, but there's not reason to torment the animal before swiftly killing it. Doing this, I believe, compromises the offering.

 

[Sees]

I agree. The people doing it should know what they are doing and the utmost respect and honor goes to the animal as well as the people, Gods, ancestors, etc.

I feel that when sacrificing, it is extremely important that the animal goes peacefully and with as little pain or stress as possible. Let's be honest, it's dying, there's going to be some stress involved, but there's not reason to torment the animal before swiftly killing it. Doing this, I believe, compromises the offering.

 

[Sees]

Yeah I would use caution when reading about who all did human sacrifice. It usually ends up as a big assumption connected or not to propaganda. A mass grave with religious or ritual artifacts will be called a testament to human sacrifice....as if there wouldn't have been a ceremonial burial

Outside of a few, rare cases where rulers were involved, in a handful of cultures, you won't find much that sticks.

Sacrifice is foundational to most old traditions and the symbolism and role it plays is very complex and vast.

Christianity itself is supposed to be based on a blood sacrifice and human sacrifice combined into one "perfect" sacrifice.

 

[EyeofOdin]

Yeah I would use caution when reading about who all did human sacrifice. It usually ends up as a big assumption connected or not to propaganda. A mass grave with religious or ritual artifacts will be called a testament to human sacrifice....as if there wouldn't have been a ceremonial burial

As a historical revisionist I absolutely agree. I find it difficult to believe that every single historical loser of war and imperialism was a barbaric, human sacrificing culture. Teutons, Celts, Gauls, Carthaginians etc. all allegedly practiced human sacrifice, however they all so happened to be political enemies of Rome.