Saints

[jonadab]

According to Roman Catholic teaching, saints are those who died and are now with Christ in heaven and who have been given recognition by the Church for outstanding holiness and virtue. The Tridentine profession of faith states that the saints are to be invoked as intercessors with God and that both the relics of saints and images of the saints are to be venerated. Other religions, too, invoke the help of saints. Certain religions teach that all of their members are saints and are free from sin. The Bible makes many references to saints, or holy ones. It refers to Christ’s 144,000 spirit-anointed followers as being such.

1. Is it Scriptural to pray to “saints” for them to act as intercessors with God?
   
2. How should the practice of venerating relics and images of “saints” be viewed?
   

 

[sojourner]

According to Roman Catholic teaching, saints are those who died and are now with Christ in heaven and who have been given recognition by the Church for outstanding holiness and virtue. The Tridentine profession of faith states that the saints are to be invoked as intercessors with God and that both the relics of saints and images of the saints are to be venerated. Other religions, too, invoke the help of saints. Certain religions teach that all of their members are saints and are free from sin. The Bible makes many references to saints, or holy ones. It refers to Christ’s 144,000 spirit-anointed followers as being such.

1. Is it Scriptural to pray to “saints” for them to act as intercessors with God?
   
2. How should the practice of venerating relics and images of “saints” be viewed?

Technically, the saints are all the faithful throughout the ages -- living and dead. Teh creeds do not call for us to "invoke" the saints. Relics and images are not worshiped. We do not pray to the saints. We ask them for help. There's an important difference.

 

[Looncall]

Technically, the saints are all the faithful throughout the ages -- living and dead. Teh creeds do not call for us to "invoke" the saints. Relics and images are not worshiped. We do not pray to the saints. We ask them for help. There's an important difference.

You guys are a laugh a minute! How can you swallow this guff?

There are saints concerned with all sorts of things, such as travellers. This is indistinguishable from the many gods of the old pagan religions. You lot just won't admit it.

 

[JLord]

We do not pray to the saints. We ask them for help. There's an important difference.

What is the important difference? If you ask god for help is that not considered praying?

 

[sojourner]

You guys are a laugh a minute! How can you swallow this guff?

There are saints concerned with all sorts of things, such as travellers. This is indistinguishable from the many gods of the old pagan religions. You lot just won't admit it.

Oh how little you understand what you seek to dismiss. You guys are a laugh a minute! How can you swallow your own guff?

 

[sojourner]

What is the important difference? If you ask god for help is that not considered praying?

Prayer involves a lot more than just doling out a laundry list. It also involves allowing yourself to be open to transformation. That's not what happens when saints are asked to intercede.

 

[Protoman]

Is it Scriptural to pray to “saints” for them to act as intercessors with God?

Jesus Christ said: “You should pray like this: ‘Our Father in heaven, . . . ’” So prayers are to be addressed to the Father. Jesus also said: “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through me. If you ask for anything in my name, I will do it.” (Matt. 6:9; John 14:6, 14, JB) Thus Jesus ruled out the idea that anyone else could fill the role of intercessor. The apostle Paul added regarding Christ: “He not only died for us—he rose from the dead, and there at God’s right hand he stands and pleads for us.” “He is living for ever to intercede for all who come to God through him.” (Rom. 8:34; Heb. 7:25, JB) If we truly want our prayers to be heard by God, would it not be wise to approach God in the way that his Word directs?
Eph. 6:18, 19, JB: “Never get tired of staying awake to pray for all the saints; and pray for me to be given an opportunity to open my mouth and speak without fear and give out the mystery of the gospel.” (Italics added.) (Here encouragement is given to pray for the saints but not to them or through them. The New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XI, p. 670, acknowledges: “Usually in the N[ew] T[estament], all prayer, private as well as public liturgical prayer, is addressed to God the Father through Christ.”)
Rom. 15:30, JB: “I beg you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of the Spirit, to help me through my dangers by praying to God for me.” (The apostle Paul, himself a saint, asked fellow Christians who were also saints to pray for him. But notice that Paul did not address his prayers to those fellow saints, nor did their prayers on his behalf replace the personal intimacy that Paul himself enjoyed with the Father by means of prayer. Compare Ephesians 3:11, 12, 14.)​

How should the practice of venerating relics and images of “saints” be viewed?

The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “It is thus vain to seek a justification for the cult of relics in the Old Testament; nor is much attention paid to relics in the New Testament. . . . [The Church “father”] Origen seems to have regarded the practice as a pagan sign of respect for a material object.”—(1967), Vol. XII, pp. 234, 235.
It is noteworthy that God buried Moses, and no human ever found out where his grave was. (Deut. 34:5, 6) But Jude 9 informs us that the archangel Michael disputed with the Devil about Moses’ body. Why? God’s purpose to dispose of it in such a manner that humans would not know where to find it was clearly stated. Did the Adversary want to direct humans to that body so that it might be put on display and perhaps become an object of veneration?​

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

According to Roman Catholic teaching, saints are those who died and are now with Christ in heaven and who have been given recognition by the Church for outstanding holiness and virtue. The Tridentine profession of faith states that the saints are to be invoked as intercessors with God and that both the relics of saints and images of the saints are to be venerated. Other religions, too, invoke the help of saints. Certain religions teach that all of their members are saints and are free from sin. The Bible makes many references to saints, or holy ones. It refers to Christ’s 144,000 spirit-anointed followers as being such.

1. Is it Scriptural to pray to “saints” for them to act as intercessors with God?
   
2. How should the practice of venerating relics and images of “saints” be viewed?

1. In a way, yes. Directly, no. Same with the Divinity of Christ, the Presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity, etc.

2. With much dulia.

 

[JLord]

Prayer involves a lot more than just doling out a laundry list. It also involves allowing yourself to be open to transformation. That's not what happens when saints are asked to intercede.

So prayer is asking god for things while at the same time being open to transformation, and asking a saint to intercede involves asking for things without being open to transformation? Is that the only difference? Because what if you are the type of person who is always open to transformation and you ask a saint to intercede in some way, does that mean you were praying to the saint because you were open to transformation at the time?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Is it Scriptural to pray to “saints” for them to act as intercessors with God?

Yes. It's also Scriptural to reject the practice. You can derive support for either position from the Bible depending on which passages you choose.

How should the practice of venerating relics and images of “saints” be viewed?

It should be viewed in a Catholic (or certain other) church, quietly, since if you disturb the subject of your viewing, your observations won't be accurate.

From my perspective, my problems with religious practice are at a more fundamental level. IMO, arguing about whether saints should be venerated or not is kinda like arguing about what the "right" arrangement should be for the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Prayer involves a lot more than just doling out a laundry list. It also involves allowing yourself to be open to transformation. That's not what happens when saints are asked to intercede.

No true Scotsman... no true prayer?

 

[sojourner]

So prayer is asking god for things while at the same time being open to transformation, and asking a saint to intercede involves asking for things without being open to transformation? Is that the only difference? Because what if you are the type of person who is always open to transformation and you ask a saint to intercede in some way, does that mean you were praying to the saint because you were open to transformation at the time?

Prayer properly isn't "asking God for things." It's about opening oneself to God's possibilities.:beach:

 

[sojourner]

No true Scotsman... no true prayer?

Asking saints to intercede isn't prayer -- just as picking one's nose isn't prayer.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Asking saints to intercede isn't prayer -- just as picking one's nose isn't prayer.

It seems that your view isn't universally shared... not even among denominations that do ask saints to intercede. This source, for instance, has no problem with calling petitions to saints "prayer".

I've heard from other Catholic sources that - as suggested by the word's etymology - the term "pray" can simply mean "ask earnestly" or "entreat".

 

[sojourner]

It seems that your view isn't universally shared... not even among denominations that do ask saints to intercede. This source, for instance, has no problem with calling petitions to saints "prayer".

I've heard from other Catholic sources that - as suggested by the word's etymology - the term "pray" can simply mean "ask earnestly" or "entreat".

OK, but there are different kinds of "prayer." Someone asking me to pray for them could be called "prayer," too, but it's an entirely different matter than what one does when one prays to Deity. It's comparing apples to oranges. They're both "fruit" but they're entirely different things.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

OK, but there are different kinds of "prayer." Someone asking me to pray for them could be called "prayer," too, but it's an entirely different matter than what one does when one prays to Deity. It's comparing apples to oranges. They're both "fruit" but they're entirely different things.

But you initially said that petition to saints wasn't "prayer" at all.

I'm not saying that apples and oranges are the same thing, but it seems to me that you were arguing that oranges weren't even fruit.

 

[sojourner]

But you initially said that petition to saints wasn't "prayer" at all.

I'm not saying that apples and oranges are the same thing, but it seems to me that you were arguing that oranges weren't even fruit.

You're really being picayune for no good reason.
One kind of prayer isn't at all the same thing as the other kind. It's like saying that praying a court of law to do something is the same thing as prayer offered to God. While they both derive their nomenclature from the same word, they are not the same thing.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You're really being picayune for no good reason.

:sarcastic

One kind of prayer isn't at all the same thing as the other kind. It's like saying that praying a court of law to do something is the same thing as prayer offered to God. While they both derive their nomenclature from the same word, they are not the same thing.

No, but they're all validly referred to as "prayer". My point is that you were off-base when you decreed in your reply to the OP and then repeated several times after that prayers to saints aren't "prayers" at all.

I think you were imposing your personal views of what prayer means to you. Even if you have grandiose ideas about the importance of your prayers, this doesn't mean that the average Catholic is being dishonest when they talk about offering prayers to Mary or the other saints, or "improper" for doing so.

 

[sojourner]

No, but they're all validly referred to as "prayer".

But not prayer in the same sense. At all. The OP assumed that they were prayer in the same sense. I was pointing out the misconception.

My point is that you were off-base when you decreed in your reply to the OP and then repeated several times after that prayers to saints aren't "prayers" at all.

See above.

I think you were imposing your personal views of what prayer means to you.

Actually, not.

Even if you have grandiose ideas about the importance of your prayers,

The idea isn't "grandiose." Prayer is what it is.

this doesn't mean that the average Catholic is being dishonest when they talk about offering prayers to Mary or the other saints, or "improper" for doing so.

I'm afraid most Catholics would agree with me on this.