Salvation Is From The Jews

[Ben Masada]

SALVATION IS FROM THE JEWS - John 4:22

In "Salvation is from the Jews," Jesus meant to that Samaritan woman
much more than just what most of us understand that he meant himself.
He didn't. He meant the whole nation, the Jewish People. How's that?

Please, don't get startled with the following statement, because I'll
explain. If Israel existed before the Flood, this would not have
happened. Do you know why the Flood happened? Because "The Lord saw
how great was man's wickedness on earth, and how no desire that his
heart conceived was ever anything but evil. (Gen. 5:5)

After the Flood, God promised Noah that "Never again He would doom the
earth because of man. (Gen. 8:21) What about if man became wicked
again? How would God make good on His promise to Noah? Because Israel
was on the make with the rise of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Israel
would be the pledge to guarantee God's promise to Noah that the world
would be saved of another similar catastrophe. I believe that's what
Jesus had in mind when he told that Samaritan woman that salvation
is from the Jews. That's what keeps the world going.

Ben :yes:

 

[Charity]

In "Salvation is from the Jews," Jesus meant to that Samaritan woman
much more than just what most of us understand that he meant himself.
He didn't. He meant the whole nation, the Jewish People. How's that?

Please, don't get startled with the following statement, because I'll
explain. If Israel existed before the Flood, this would not have
happened. Do you know why the Flood happened? Because "The Lord saw
how great was man's wickedness on earth, and how no desire that his
heart conceived was ever anything but evil. (Gen. 5:5)

After the Flood, God promised Noah that "Never again He would doom the
earth because of man. (Gen. 8:21) What about if man became wicked
again? How would God make good on His promise to Noah? Because Israel
was on the make with the rise of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Israel
would be the pledge to guarantee God's promise to Noah that the world
would be saved of another similar catastrophe. I believe that's what
Jesus had in mind when he told that Samaritan woman that salvation
is from the Jews. That's what keeps the world going.

Ben

Good morning Ben
Hey you forgot to include the most beautiful part about the covenant sign. The rainbow.....How could anyone forget anything so beautiful?

 

[IF_u_knew]

Depends on how one views Jesus I suppose. I have many reasons for knowing what it is he is representing, though it was not spoken to me the way that it has apparently been spoken to you. Genesis 29 gave me quite the different perspective of this particular parable. Hmmm.. I also see the same allegory being represented in I Samuel, which is exciting to me. The key to how it was spoken to me is in the fact that mine is not dependent on Jesus ever having actually existed. That would be the major difference between my view and the Christians and most likely the slight difference between yours and mine as well.. because Ben, I just can't get over the slight but important difference in the word "of" and "in."

 

[tomspug]

I disagree. God formed a covenant to never flood the earth again, so he won't. Plain and simple. The Jews are the great source of salvation on this earth for the reasons you suggest, except that if they weren't there, there still wouldn't be a flood.

 

[ayani]

i've always read Jesus' words this way:

the Jewish people were chosen, through Abraham, to know and walk with and live for the One True God. they were chosen to be an example before other nations, and to serve as a way for them to hear about the unseen and almighty God of the heavens and earth. also, remember Jonah's mission to Assyria, a Gentile nation.

so through the Jews, the nations are blessed to hear of and perhaps come to know the True God. God had chosen no other nation for Himself, to keep His ways and serve Him, called by Him out of Egypt. called to be uniquely devoted to Him alone, to abhor worshiping images, and to show the nations His strength was real, and with them.

the promise of Messiah is that in Him and through Him, all peoples could come to know the God of Israel. He would be a Davidic king to bring salvation to the ends of the earth, and cause the nations to bear God's name. so in Messiah, salvation is still through the Jews. the Gentiles were waiting for no such Messiah, so it is through and because of the Jewish people that the blessing of knowing the God of heaven and earth becomes available for all.

 

[IF_u_knew]

Ben, I just wanted to say that my view of what you are speaking of very much has to do with Deuteronomy 30: 11-14, thus why I say maybe only the slight difference in how I view what you are saying. I see it more personally, though I agree the salvation is of only a certain people. I do however see that there are stipulations put onto it and so, until "Jew" is defined specifically to the world, it is hard to define who exactly that salvation is of (because it is not "of" all those who are claiming to be Jewish. oh, and yes.. I do believe that it does have to do with bloodline, but not just bloodline either. thus, the spirit and truth spoken of in John 4 ~ also confirmed in Daniel). I do not believe one has to recognize that Jesus had much of anything to do with it. I view the story of Jesus as something that was used to corrupt the Truth and now G.d is setting that Truth straight by taking the corruption by "the tail". As the passage states, it is already in one's heart and in their mouth; and they know this if they are a part of what you speak of.. this has to be the case since it has obviously not yet been revealed to the world. Just wanted to come back and clarify that perhaps we do not view it all that differently if at all... still, not sure. (???)

By the way, and I hope my mentioning this does not get turned into something ugly (I have been unpleasantly surprised before by such), I think the pointing out of the rainbow was very clever considering.

 

[Ben Masada]

Good morning Ben
Hey you forgot to include the most beautiful part about the covenant sign. The rainbow.....How could anyone forget anything so beautiful?

It had to be Charity to catch me on that so enormous of a mistake! How are you Charity? It has been such a long time since I read you last. Where have you been?
Don't tell me, computer problems?

Well, the rainbow too. In fact, I should not have forgotten the rainbow because the Almighty set it on the clouds as a reminder not to Himself of His covenant,
but as a reminder to the nations. Why? Because He knew that the nations would not like to be reminded of the real reason why in the world from then on, it would be safe to live.

Did you bring me some cookies? :drool:

Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

I disagree. God formed a covenant to never flood the earth again, so he won't. Plain and simple. The Jews are the great source of salvation on this earth for the reasons you suggest, except that if they weren't there, there still wouldn't be a flood.

Isn't it true what I just told Charity above? The world does not like the idea to navigate throughout the Cosmos in a space shattle empowered by Jewish fuel. Well, my
friend Tomspug, whether you admit it or not, Jesus said that the salvation of the world is from the Jews.

Ben:

 

[Ben Masada]

Ben, I just wanted to say that my view of what you are speaking of very much has to do with Deuteronomy 30: 11-14, thus why I say maybe only the slight difference in how I view what you are saying. I see it more personally, though I agree the salvation is of only a certain people. I do however see that there are stipulations put onto it and so, until "Jew" is defined specifically to the world, it is hard to define who exactly that salvation is of (because it is not "of" all those who are claiming to be Jewish. oh, and yes.. I do believe that it does have to do with bloodline, but not just bloodline either. thus, the spirit and truth spoken of in John 4 ~ also confirmed in Daniel). I do not believe one has to recognize that Jesus had much of anything to do with it. I view the story of Jesus as something that was used to corrupt the Truth and now G.d is setting that Truth straight by taking the corruption by "the tail". As the passage states, it is already in one's heart and in their mouth; and they know this if they are a part of what you speak of.. this has to be the case since it has obviously not yet been revealed to the world. Just wanted to come back and clarify that perhaps we do not view it all that differently if at all... still, not sure. (???)

By the way, and I hope my mentioning this does not get turned into something ugly (I have been unpleasantly surprised before by such), I think the pointing out of the rainbow was very clever considering.

Hi Katie,

I agree with you that the pointing out of the rainbow was indeed very clever. And for another word about the rainbow, I see it but as the token of the Noahite Covenant.
You know, like the tree of knowledge for the Edenic Covenant, the circumcision for the Abrahamic Covenant, the Sabbath for the Sinaitic Covenant, and freewill for the New Covenant. But everything, as you have helped me to see: Allegorically.

Ben: :yes:

 

[Ben Masada]

i've always read Jesus' words this way:

the Jewish people were chosen, through Abraham, to know and walk with and live for the One True God. they were chosen to be an example before other nations, and to serve as a way for them to hear about the unseen and almighty God of the heavens and earth. also, remember Jonah's mission to Assyria, a Gentile nation.

so through the Jews, the nations are blessed to hear of and perhaps come to know the True God. God had chosen no other nation for Himself, to keep His ways and serve Him, called by Him out of Egypt. called to be uniquely devoted to Him alone, to abhor worshiping images, and to show the nations His strength was real, and with them.

the promise of Messiah is that in Him and through Him, all peoples could come to know the God of Israel. He would be a Davidic king to bring salvation to the ends of the earth, and cause the nations to bear God's name. so in Messiah, salvation is still through the Jews. the Gentiles were waiting for no such Messiah, so it is through and because of the Jewish people that the blessing of knowing the God of heaven and earth becomes available for all.

Very inspirative thoughts these of yours Ayani. Even the last paragraph, I can
comfortably identify the Messiah with "he" whom God called out of Egypt, according to Hosea 11:1 and Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My son; so let My son go, so that "he" may serve Me."

Ben; :bow:

 

[Ben Masada]

Depends on how one views Jesus I suppose. I have many reasons for knowing what it is he is representing, though it was not spoken to me the way that it has apparently been spoken to you. Genesis 29 gave me quite the different perspective of this particular parable. Hmmm.. I also see the same allegory being represented in I Samuel, which is exciting to me. The key to how it was spoken to me is in the fact that mine is not dependent on Jesus ever having actually existed. That would be the major difference between my view and the Christians and most likely the slight difference between yours and mine as well.. because Ben, I just can't get over the slight but important difference in the word "of" and "in."

Katie, here is how I view Jesus: A religious Jew born with the mission to bring his People into a spiritual revival. Jesus' awakening reform is reflected in Matthew 5:17-19. His aim was to turn the nation into a State governed by Torah as the constitution of the Jewish People. He was too nationalistic though, which rather
being a virtue, would invite misreadings of his personality as we have what happened to Judas.

Although he focused on his private group of 12, he had quite a following. Between the greater multitude and the 12, he had 72 special disciples, whom he would assign
certain roles in his Ministry. (Luke 10:1)

I believe his biological parents were indeed Joseph and Mary; and because of a Roman Census in the year 4 BCE, his parents had to go to Bethlehem and Jesus happened to be born. When he was 40 days old, the family returned to Nazareth. He was never in Egypt. The attempt of Matthew to take him there was to plagiarize the call of Israel from Egypt.
When he was 13, his parents brought him up to Jerusalem for his Bar Mitvah, and because he was a very gifted child, really precocious, he would indeed impress priests and Teachers of the Law with his wisdom.

From his age 13 till 30, he must have spent his life between helping his father in his Carpentry and with his cousin John the Baptist in an Essene Monastery in preparation for the Rabbinate.

At that time there were two classifications of Rabbis in Israel. Senior Rabbis who would stay in Yeshivas where students would go to, and Junior Rabbis, who opperated on an ambulant manner: Going from place to place preaching and teaching Torah.

Jesus was never more than a Junior Rabbi, as the title was never granted on widom alone but according to the time spent as such. Jesus didn't have even four years as a Rabbi.

| also believe he was married, because the Law was strict about married Rabbis. One wouldn't even start as a single Rabbi. And I believe he married Marry Magdalene because she was the one he loved and was loved by.

I believe he was crucified because among others like him who were ambulant Rabbis, they irritated the Romans, who had a policy to arrest any head of a subversive private group and put him to the cross, so that the followers would disperse. But I don't believe he died on the cross. He did survive the cross. After
40 days after his crucifixion he left Israel with his wife, Joseph of Arimathea, and probably his mother, and silence was gold for about 30 years.

When Jesus left he made sure his disciples would continue his work of Torah revival.
Then, there was never in the History of Israel a group of more missionary Jews than the Nazarenes.
They organized the Sect and started making converts everywhere, even from among the Pharisees. The Sect became know as the Way.
And it grew geometrically, until Paul show up with a strange gospel about Jesus. Not because Jesus was what Paul preached about him but because he needed him to give rise to his Church of Christianity. Little by little and until 133 CE, the Nazarenes were absorbed part into the Church of Paul and part into mainstream Judaism.

These then are my views about Jesus. All the Pauline paraphernalia about Jesus were only sausage fillers. Jesus was Jewish, and anything said about him that contradicts his
Faith, which was Judaism, is not true.

Ben: :shout

 

[IF_u_knew]

These then are my views about Jesus. All the Pauline paraphernalia about Jesus were only sausage fillers. Jesus was Jewish, and anything said about him that contradicts his
Faith, which was Judaism, is not true.

Ben: :shout

Not unlikely, but you want to know where I found myself between this view and the Hellenistic view? Smack dab in the middle wondering: was it the Truth that was turned into deception or was it deception that is being turned into the Truth? I felt so caught up between the two extremes for so long and here, in the last couple of weeks, I realized something...

All I know and all I have proof of is what I hear and see behind all of it. It is the unspoken Word behind the spoken words. So, to me, the actual events that carried out seem irrelevant concerning the Truth and how that applies to me, and quite frankly, all of humanity (since we all are, after all, in the here and the now). Based on the Word speaking through the Tanakh, my speculation would be that the story in which we read in the NT is what happened.. only in a way that is *consistent* with the Tanakh. This can be seen when one replaces "Jesus" (that image.. the man) with the Word of G.d (that being the Law and the prophets); in other words, allegorically speaking, Jesus represented the Word (and all the characters in the midst there represent some fraction of us personally as we try to relate to the Word of G.d).

The past is in the past. As I just told you, it is more difficult to return to the past... but clearly man had figured out a way through collective memory; writings, the pyramids; and other ancient relics that stand out in the mini, but vast expanses of our personal universes (our minds). But they twisted this and they twisted the events leaving us really only one thing to do.. speculate and argue on the actual events. Personally, I love to speculate, but I hate banking on it as fact. The Word of G.d, which was said even by the prophets, would be sold and broken.. but the Word of G.d is enduring when one learns to hear His voice via His understanding. So, I think the hellenistic view if turned into an allegory rather than a factual play of events could revolutionize the way we see the story of Jesus and show us the Truth about the ACTUAL Word of G.d that is so eloquently written, even more so behind the words of the Tanakh.

All else would require blind faith and that, I just do not have in me. And to add... it is in this view that I feel confident in saying it is the Word of G.d (not man) who is the Messiah (the anointed, via tears and not an actual "ointment") and the eternal Saviour of not only Israel, but mankind in general. Certainly, in light of this, it is understandable to say that salvation is *of* the Jews. Right now though, more than a physical salvation.. we need a universal (yes, dramatic for a purpose) understanding of G.d and it is right there in front of us, written out; but it is not the words that most see. It is written in the language of the heart.. not the tongue.

 

[Charity]

Yes , thank you Ben, the rainbow most important as a sign. I like it when people realize that God is a Covenant God.

Yes I brought fresh baked cookies just for you my sweet. Enjoy

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Ben, did you read this part?


John 4:25-26 (NIV)

25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."
26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."

 

[Ben Masada]

Ben, did you read this part?


John 4:25-26 (NIV)

Yes, I did. That's a much later interpolation of either the gospel writer 60 years later, or by the Fathers of the Church in 327 CE when they had to edit the writings that needed to be approved into the Canon of the NT.

The word Christ with reference to Jesus was not heard until 30 years later with Paul
in Antioch. (Acts 11:26)

Ben:

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Yes, I did. That's a much later interpolation of either the gospel writer 60 years later, or by the Fathers of the Church in 327 CE when they had to edit the writings that needed to be approved into the Canon of the NT.

The word Christ with reference to Jesus was not heard until 30 years later with Paul
in Antioch. (Acts 11:26)

Ben:

Are you saying John didn't author John?
I'm aware of errors via scribes. Are you saying this might be one of them?

The women at the well used the words Messiah. Was that an addition as well?

What references might you have to support your claims?

 

[IF_u_knew]

Ben, I am still curious to know if your original post in this thread has anything to do with Deuteronomy 30: 11-14 in the way that you view it. And also, do you see the correlations I have drawn up with both Genesis 29 and I Samuel 1?

One of the reasons why I say that using the story of Jesus as an allegory could revolutionize the way we look at the Word of G.d can be seen in this story with the woman at the well. Most take it to be an actual event that took place. If this is the case, then it would give Jesus the power of divination which is Hellenistic in its origins and not Jewish. I am referring to his ability to know that she had 5 husbands and was without one at the time, of course. But there is great meaning in that if seen as an allegory and the meaning of it is clearly explained in the Tanakh.

I know for me, when I finally forced (yes, forced) myself to look at the Laws of G.d w/out the excuse that I had an excuse, thus the need for a human sacrifice so as not to look at them, well, I realized that the reason it was so hard to do was because it was like looking into a mirror; only one of the heart. Thus, we could say this woman was looking at the Word (the Law) and seeing herself.. that is, if we simply replace Jesus with the Truth.. the Word. Do I make sense?

 

[Ben Masada]

Are you saying John didn't author John?

That's exactly what I am saying Jeremy. The author of the fourth gospel was a Gentlle disciple of Paul. Too much unJewish stuff in that gospel. Let alone a tremendous lack of what is to be a Jew. Jesus was Jewish. Therefore, anything not Jewish about Jesus did not come from him or about him.

I'm aware of errors via scribes. Are you saying this might be one of them?

The gospels were not writen by Jewish Scribes. And everything in them was reported 50+ years after the alleged facts.

The women at the well used the words Messiah. Was that an addition as well?

That part from John 4:25 and on yes, it was an interpolation added most probably by the editors in the Fourth Century, when the NT was organized.

What references might you have to support your claims?

First, my Jewishness and the Jewishness of Jesus. Second, the time that elapsed from that alleged fact and the time the gospel came to light. Last but not least, the fact that the Sect of the Nazarenes had it's headquarters in Jerusalem for about 30 years and were coexisting peacefully with the local Jews, making converts even among the Pharisees. When Paul showed up preaching about Jesus as the Messiah,
son of God, and that he had resurrected, he was nearly killed for preaching apostasy in Jerusalem. Why? What then were the Nazarenes preaching about Jesus that was so different? Obviously, the very Apostles of Jesus were as much surprised about the gospel of Paul as were the regular Jews.

Ben:

 

[Ben Masada]

Yes , thank you Ben, the rainbow most important as a sign. I like it when people realize that God is a Covenant God.

Yes I brought fresh baked cookies just for you my sweet. Enjoy

Thanks darling! :drool:

 

[McBell]

Mark 7:19
...He said this, making all food clean.
​

Does this mean that all the food restrictions from the OT are now null and void?
And if it does, would that not mean that Jesus was not a Jew after all?