Salvation

[Kenny]

It is not always necessary because it was/is only needed for unintentional sins.

No, G-d did not say 'stop', but neither does He expect people to do impossible things. Certain prayers are said in place of Temple service, which, as I quoted above, was done from the times of old. It is in accordance with Hoshea 14:3,

Take words with yourselves and return to the Lord. Say, "You shall forgive all iniquity and teach us the good way, and let us render for bulls the offering of our lips.

So really, it has not stopped; it is only being done in a different way, given the limitations.

OK... back to the OP. We are saved from separation from G-d. Redeemed, so to speak, from the curse of the Law found in Deut. 28 and entered into the fulness of His blessing.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

It seems odd to me that a middleman such as Jesus is needed.

And self-contradictory considering that Jesus is placed after everything that has happened, as if nothing before him mattered (which is absurd). The only way such a doctrine could ever make sense would be if Jesus came and was crucified directly after Adam/Eve ate the fruit
The Tanakh outlines a simple and straight-forward view of salvation, as highlighted in the Torah but also re-emphasized in many of the Nevi'im.
The Qur'an/Islam is very clear about salvation and that it's only through God, not directly related to which "religion" you follow per se, in as much as represented, being faithful, righteous and reflecting those in your deeds, in your life itself.

Christianity is incredibly strange and I will never be able to understand it, not in regards to what they believe (because that's quite well known) but how and what it's purpose is.
The Christian view proposes a very strong sense of dualism (of the Mazakite, Sethian and Manichaean variety), which also arises from a very anti-world, anti-nature view which one would think is the opposite of what the God of Abraham, the God of Israel promotes.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

If sin means "separation from God" as Christians say, then it means that sinning makes you greater than God, meaning that if you sin enough then you would have more power than God or something to that effect.
It's pretty absurd but Christians don't think about what they're saying in these matters.

In the Islamic view, Sin is ignorance and distances ourselves from our innate fitrah, of which is submission towards the One God, which is the center of our own being, the fire in our own hearts (Qalb). So sin weakens and dumbs us away from our purpose in life of being unified in spirit and being able to attain knowledge (of the spiritual variety, Marifa) and Taqwa (consciousness, awareness of God's imminence).
The idea of "separation from God' is Shirk in the Islamic view because it implies that you are some kind of second God (which is also a logical impossibility and contradiction of meaning), as God encompasses all things (al-Wasi).

 

[robocop (actually)]

In Christianity, it is said that Jesus provides salvation. Salvation from what, though? 'Salvation from your sins' seems to be a common answer, but that still sounds vague. It differs from Judaism and Islam in that one can go directly to G-d in repentence. Where did this Christian concept of salvation come from, and from what, exactly is this salvation? Can a Christian go directly to 'God the Father' and ask forgiveness? If not, why not? It seems odd to me that a middleman such as Jesus is needed.

I think you know this; standard Sunday School.

Our sins separate us from God because He is perfect. Jesus Christ was perfect, but suffered for our sins anyway. That's why Jesus is the middleman.

 

[robocop (actually)]

In Christianity, it is said that Jesus provides salvation. Salvation from what, though? 'Salvation from your sins' seems to be a common answer, but that still sounds vague. It differs from Judaism and Islam in that one can go directly to G-d in repentence. Where did this Christian concept of salvation come from, and from what, exactly is this salvation? Can a Christian go directly to 'God the Father' and ask forgiveness? If not, why not? It seems odd to me that a middleman such as Jesus is needed.

Of course, in Judaism, when you truly perform a mikvah or a commandment, you are going to obey it forever. There will be no more disobedience.

 

[Rival]

Of course, in Judaism, when you truly perform a mikvah or a commandment, you are going to obey it forever. There will be no more disobedience.

Haha, you mean a mitzvah mikvah is a body of water for ritual purification.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Haha, you mean a mitzvah mikvah is a body of water for ritual purification.

Yep... I was just coming to correct myself.

 

[Deeje]

In Christianity, it is said that Jesus provides salvation. Salvation from what, though? 'Salvation from your sins' seems to be a common answer, but that still sounds vague. It differs from Judaism and Islam in that one can go directly to G-d in repentence. Where did this Christian concept of salvation come from, and from what, exactly is this salvation? Can a Christian go directly to 'God the Father' and ask forgiveness? If not, why not? It seems odd to me that a middleman such as Jesus is needed.

Repentance has always been the criteria for forgiveness.....and we are forgiven only on the basis of how we forgive others.
Matthew 6:5-15....Jesus said....
5 “Also, when you pray, do not act like the hypocrites, for they like to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the main streets to be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your private room and, after shutting your door, pray to your Father who is in secret. Then your Father who looks on in secret will repay you. 7 When praying, do not say the same things over and over again as the people of the nations do, for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words. 8 So do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need even before you ask him.

9 “You must pray, then, this way: ("this way"....not "this prayer")

“‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10 Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth. 11 Give us today our bread for this day; 12 and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And do not bring us into temptation, but deliver us from the wicked one.’

14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; 15 whereas if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Israel had the means to obtain God's forgiveness through the sacrifices offered at the Temple. Blood sacrifices were an integral part of obtaining forgiveness both personally and nationally according to the Law. But the blood of animals provided only temporary forgiveness.....it pictured the blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ whose blood was offered permanently on behalf of all mankind. Only a perfect sinless life could be offered for the perfect sinless life that Adam took from his children. Hence Jesus was not the product of sinful humans, but a product of holy spirit.

What are we being "saved from"? If any Israelite in Egypt had failed to put the lamb's blood on their doorposts on the night that the Angel of Death passed by, God's wrath would also have been expressed on them too. Only strict obedience to God's commands saved them. Likewise, unless we have the blood of the Lamb applied in our case, we too will lose our lives when God finally judges the world by his appointed King. We will be saved from the coming wrath of God. (John 3:36)

And we have to maintain our obedience.....we remember that out of all those who escaped from Egypt, only two of that generation were permitted to enter the Promised Land (Joshua and Caleb)....the rest were mostly second and third generation. So having been "saved" by God in miraculous fashion, those Jews did not continue in the obedience they swore to uphold at Mt Sinai....and they lost their 'ticket' to the 'Land flowing with milk and honey"....traveling for 40 years in a dried up wilderness instead.

It's not that it's no longer required, but it's impossible to do seeing as there's no Temple and no way of building one.

Since the two Temples in Israel were destroyed because of Israel's disobedience, and the second Temple was rebuilt at God's command, have you never wondered why, after the destruction of the Temple in 70CE, God has not commanded a rebuilding of his Temple for almost 2,000 years? The Temple (prefigured by the Tabernacle) was an integral part of Israel's worship.....and the sacrifices were also an important part of that worship. Where is there any command in Israel's scripture to stop offering to God their blood sacrifices as prescribed in the Law. If the Law is still operative, then why is there no Temple? If blood is needed to forgive sins....what can possibly be a substitute?

However, even were there a Temple, not every sin requires a sacrifice, not every offering is for sin, and it's overall more complex than 'for your sins'. It was established by King Shlomo that, were there no Temple, or if the Temple could not be reached, repentence is enough -

Leveticus 7:1-4...(Tanakh)
"And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,

2 Speak to the children of Israel, saying: If a person sins unintentionally [by committing one] of all the commandments of the Lord, which may not be committed, and he commits [part] of one of them

3 If the anointed kohen sins, bringing guilt to the people, then he shall bring for his sin which he has committed, an unblemished young bull as a sin offering to the Lord.

4 And he shall bring the bull to the entrance of the Tent of Meeting before the Lord, and he shall lean his hand [forcefully] upon the bull's head and slaughter the bull before the Lord.

5 And the anointed kohen shall take from the bull's blood and bring it into the Tent of Meeting.

6 And the kohen shall dip his finger into the blood and sprinkle some of the blood seven times before the Lord, before the dividing curtain of the Sanctuary.

7 And the kohen shall place some of the blood on the horns of the incense altar which is in the Tent of Meeting, before the Lord, and he shall pour all the blood of the bull onto the base of the altar [used] for burnt offerings, which is at the entrance of the Tent of Meeting"

Blood sacrifices were not offered for no reason. Blood represents life itself, which is why its consumption was forbidden...not respecting the sanctity of life. The blood of an animal slaughtered for food was to be pored out on the earth symbolically returning an animal's life to God.

In sacrifice, the blood was symbolically offered for the sins humans committed as a result of the sin of Adam. Those sacrifices pictured the future sacrificed blood of Christ, which was a "once and for all time" redemption of the human race. Once Christ had offered his blood on behalf of mankind, there was no need to offer animals again. And once God had cast the murderers of his son away from him, the Temple no longer served any valid use for them. That is why no Temple was ever built on earth again. Regardless of what the Jews say in protest. They have no reason under their present beliefs not to have a Temple if they worship the same God and are still under the original Law...and are still awaiting their Messiah.

II Chronicles 5:34-35
If Your people go out to battle against their enemy, by whatever way You send them, and pray to You toward this city, which You have chosen, and the House that I have built for Your name. You shall hear from heaven their prayer and supplication and maintain their cause.

The proviso for the answer to their prayer was obedience to the Law. When Israel obeyed God, he blessed them...but when they disobeyed he punished them...sometimes very severely. No prayer was heard by God if they disregarded his laws. Their sacrifices became abhorrent to him.

"Woe to a sinful nation, a people heavy with iniquity, evildoing seed, corrupt children. They forsook the Lord; they provoked the Holy One of Israel; they drew backwards. . . ."Had not the Lord of Hosts left us a remnant, we would soon be like Sodom; we would resemble Gomorrah.. . . . Of what use are your many sacrifices to Me? says the Lord. I am sated with the burnt-offerings of rams and the fat of fattened cattle; and the blood of bulls and sheep and hegoats I do not want. . . .
You shall no longer bring vain meal-offerings, it is smoke of abomination to Me; New Moons and Sabbaths, calling convocations, I cannot [bear] iniquity with assembly.
Your New Moons and your appointed seasons My soul hates, they are a burden to Me; I am weary of bearing [them].
And when you spread out your hands, I will hide My eyes from you, even when you pray at length, I do not hear; your hands are full of blood." (Isaiah 1:4-15 Tanakh)

The wrath of God is coming upon all who do not comply with his will and purpose....so its up to us to find out what God requires of us....to stop making excuses...and just do it.

 

[Kenny]

If sin means "separation from God" as Christians say, then it means that sinning makes you greater than God, meaning that if you sin enough then you would have more power than God or something to that effect.
It's pretty absurd but Christians don't think about what they're saying in these matters.

This logic is illogical. No more logical than if a 5 year old disobeys a parent and eats the cookie makes the child greater than the parents.

 

[halbhh]

In Christianity, it is said that Jesus provides salvation. Salvation from what, though? 'Salvation from your sins' seems to be a common answer, but that still sounds vague. It differs from Judaism and Islam in that one can go directly to G-d in repentence. Where did this Christian concept of salvation come from, and from what, exactly is this salvation? Can a Christian go directly to 'God the Father' and ask forgiveness? If not, why not? It seems odd to me that a middleman such as Jesus is needed.

Yes, God forgives those who repent.

But many are 'lost.'

Essentially 'salvation' means to be rescued.

Here's a good brief explanation --

27 After this, Jesus went out and saw a tax collector [* collecting taxes from the defeated Israelites for the Roman conquerors] by the name of Levi sitting at his tax booth. “Follow me,” Jesus said to him, 28 and Levi got up, left everything and followed him.

29 Then Levi held a great banquet for Jesus at his house, and a large crowd of tax collectors and others were eating with them. 30 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who belonged to their sect complained to his disciples, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?”

31 Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

Luke 5 NIV


So, you see, Jesus came to confront and suffer our evils without striking back, not in order to save those who do not need him, but instead to change those who do need redemption, and rescue, from themselves and their own blindness and lostness. He is a Savior. It's like....like a Life Guard who sees someone drowning who looks to the Life Guard at the last moments for help, and the Life Guard jumps in to rescue the person from death.

The thing is though, that most everyone is indeed lost without Him.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

This logic is illogical. No more logical than if a 5 year old disobeys a parent and eats the cookie makes the child greater than the parents.

So when you say "separation from God" you don't actually mean separation from God?

 

[Windwalker]

In Christianity, it is said that Jesus provides salvation. Salvation from what, though? 'Salvation from your sins' seems to be a common answer, but that still sounds vague. It differs from Judaism and Islam in that one can go directly to G-d in repentence. Where did this Christian concept of salvation come from, and from what, exactly is this salvation? Can a Christian go directly to 'God the Father' and ask forgiveness? If not, why not? It seems odd to me that a middleman such as Jesus is needed.

Using the Christian language here, yes, one can go directly to God the Father. In the language, Christ bridges that gap between humanity and divinity. What that means is that we in our humanity, can recognize "sin", or that which falls short of our perceptions of divinity. "That which I would do, that thing I do not", captures that perception. We are aware of how we fall short.

What the image of the man Jesus, as standing between man and God, is the image of our own humanity awakening to the divine, yet realizing it's own sinful nature, the propensity to selfishness in a world of community. Jesus represents humanity Awakening to the Divine. Where this forgiveness from the "Son of God" comes into play, is that to say that in our own humanness, we can find forgiveness for ourselves before "the Father", or God.

It's all about being able to relate to "divine human" within ourselves. Self-forgiveness, is the key to the forgiveness of others. And that is where the Grace, portrayed by the Christian mythos, I'd say, stands apart, yet complementary to the other systems of religion which approach the Divine from another slope up that mountain.

 

[Jainarayan]

Haha, you mean a mitzvah

Just a side note... is that the word used for a good deed? It sticks in my head as such.

 

[Kenny]

So when you say "separation from God" you don't actually mean separation from God?

What I meant, since we are talking about what you said, "then it means that sinning makes you greater than God, meaning that if you sin enough then you would have more power than God or something to that effect." - totally illogical.

So, changing the subject doesn't help your position.

 

[Katzpur]

Christians believe that they need to be saved from the original sin that was inherited from Adam and Eve, and that is why Jesus had to die on the cross, but that is not a belief I hold. 30: ADAM AND EVE

And that belief, in my opinion, is pure nonsense. A person sins when he intentionally acts in a way that is contrary to what his conscience tells him. That's not something that can be inherited. We all commit enough sins on our own to cause us to be estranged from God; we certainly don't need to carry the burden of being punished for someone else's sins.

 

[Katzpur]

This logic is illogical. No more logical than if a 5 year old disobeys a parent and eats the cookie makes the child greater than the parents.

LOL! Duh.

 

[firedragon]

Can a Christian go directly to 'God the Father' and ask forgiveness? If not, why not? It seems odd to me that a middleman such as Jesus is needed.

Im curious. Why do you have to go to either the father or Jesus for salvation when salvation is granted due to the Christs sacrifice?

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

What I meant, since we are talking about what you said, "then it means that sinning makes you greater than God, meaning that if you sin enough then you would have more power than God or something to that effect." - totally illogical.

So, changing the subject doesn't help your position.

Then my impression is that you don't really mean "separation from God" when you say that, but rather something else.

 

[Trailblazer]

And that belief, in my opinion, is pure nonsense. A person sins when he intentionally acts in a way that is contrary to what his conscience tells him. That's not something that can be inherited. We all commit enough sins on our own to cause us to be estranged from God; we certainly don't need to carry the burden of being punished for someone else's sins.

I fully agree...

So Mormons don't believe that original sin was inherited from Adam and Eve?

 

[Katzpur]

I fully agree...

So Mormons don't believe that original sin was inherited from Adam and Eve?

No, we absolutely don't.