Salvation

[Kenny]

Could you explain... what do you mean by Spiritually speaking, it is direct even now,Hebrews 4:16?

In other words, because of the work of The Cross through Jesus Christ, we actually have entrance into the throne of grace and mercy. Grace for mercy and grace for help in the time of need. There is no distance or place in the spirit (so to speak). His Holy Spirit lives in us 1 Cor 3:16, we are seated in heavenly place in Christ (Eph 1:3).

There are moments when you can actually feel God's presence because we are now in His presence and can be in His throne through and with prayer.

 

[nPeace]

If sin means "separation from God" as Christians say, then it means that sinning makes you greater than God, meaning that if you sin enough then you would have more power than God or something to that effect.
It's pretty absurd but Christians don't think about what they're saying in these matters.

In the Islamic view, Sin is ignorance and distances ourselves from our innate fitrah, of which is submission towards the One God, which is the center of our own being, the fire in our own hearts (Qalb). So sin weakens and dumbs us away from our purpose in life of being unified in spirit and being able to attain knowledge (of the spiritual variety, Marifa) and Taqwa (consciousness, awareness of God's imminence).
The idea of "separation from God' is Shirk in the Islamic view because it implies that you are some kind of second God (which is also a logical impossibility and contradiction of meaning), as God encompasses all things (al-Wasi).

Sin means“miss,” in the sense of missing or not reaching a goal, way, mark, or right point.
So sin does not put us on par with, or above God. It puts us far below what God expects us to be.
We are unfathomably distanced from God.
However, in God's mercy, he has throughout history, made available to man, the means of approach to him, but based on the promise he made at the very start - directly after the fall of man (Genesis 3:15).
(Romans 3:25, 26) 25 God presented him as an offering for propitiation through faith in his blood. This was to demonstrate his own righteousness, because God in his forbearance was forgiving the sins that occurred in the past. 26 This was to demonstrate his own righteousness in this present season, so that he might be righteous even when declaring righteous the man who has faith in Jesus.

Thus God acted immediately after the sin of Adam, but the seed would not arrive until later, because there were requirements that needed to be met according to God's righteousness.
1) The seed must be a king and priest - to rule in the kingdom that would reverse the damage done, and intercede in behalf of repentant ones.
This would take time, since God needed a people whom this seed would come through. Hence (a) when the promise was made to Abraham, God kept it, even the the chosen nation was rebellious. (b) the arrangements God made for the nation - the tabernacle, the offerings, etc, pictured and pointed to the promised seed, and his kingly priestly service. It also prepared people who would be faithful, for that future reality.

2) God's standards require a life be given for a life taken.
Therefore, since Adam's death would result in all his offspring dying, a life had to be given for that life lost... but whose life?
The seed was to be bruised in the heel, according to the promise. Hence, the promised seed was the life that would be given to redeem dying mankind.

All of this took time, but it was necessary for God to accomplish a number of things...
1) Settle the issues raise in the garden, so that it goes on record as finished... never to be repeated..
2) Appoint the one who was worthy.of that responsibility.
3) Bring all things to a completion through that one.

The scriptures presents this is one clear, coherent, and reasonable sequence of events. It's quite fluid actually.
Not strange at all.

 

[nPeace]

In other words, because of the work of The Cross through Jesus Christ, we actually have entrance into the throne of grace and mercy. Grace for mercy and grace for help in the time of need. There is no distance or place in the spirit (so to speak). His Holy Spirit lives in us 1 Cor 3:16, we are seated in heavenly place in Christ (Eph 1:3).

There are moments when you can actually feel God's presence because we are now in His presence and can be in His throne through and with prayer.

Okay, so you meant entirely spiritual... not in any way tangible. I understand.

 

[Kenny]

Okay, so you meant entirely spiritual... not in any way tangible. I understand.

Yes (of course). But we are spiritual beings for that which we see is temporal but that what we don't see is eternal. I wonder if the spiritual aspect of being in His presence is actually more real that physically.

thank for asking.

 

[nPeace]

Yes (of course). But we are spiritual beings for that which we see is temporal but that what we don't see is eternal. I wonder if the spiritual aspect of being in His presence is actually more real that physically.

thank for asking.

Spirituality is indeed real. That's why unbelievers are not going to be spared judgement.
However, spiritual things are a reflection of the tangible... preceding what one can touch.
So those who have the hope of the heavenly calling see the reality of it though future, but the spirit is a token, or seal they see at present,
(Ephesians 1:13, 14) 13 But you also hoped in him after you heard the word of truth, the good news about your salvation. After you believed, you were sealed by means of him with the promised holy spirit, 14 which is a token in advance of our inheritance, for the purpose of releasing God’s own possession by a ransom, to his glorious praise.

(2 Corinthians 5:5) Now the one who prepared us for this very thing is God, who gave us the spirit as a token of what is to come.

(1 Peter 1:3, 4) 3 Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you,

(2 Corinthians 1:21, 22) 21 But the one who guarantees that you and we belong to Christ and the one who anointed us is God. 22 He has also put his seal on us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit, in our hearts.

Yes. It's very real.
When you say we are spiritual beings, I am guessing you mean we are made in God's image, with spiritual needs.
It's easy to misunderstand what you mean, as we know, we are physical beings... but I know what you mean. I think... ?

(1 Corinthians 2:14-16) 14 But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I recall the book of Genesis tells us that some time after Adam sinned, Abel offered a sacrifice to God.
What would you say was the reason for that?

Worship and praise.

 

[nPeace]

Worship and praise.

You think Abel decided that he needed to grab a few sheep - firstborns - and slaughter them, cut them up, take their fat out, and offer those along with the other parts, in order to worship and praise God? Interesting.
Seems to me you just decided you could throw any thing in, as an answer, but it doesn't make any sense. Why would you think man could not worship and praise God without the fat of rams? Did Adam not do so for decades? He could easily have grabbed the biggest animal and chopped it up, and offer the largest sacrifice ever.
I don't see it making sense. Perhaps you can explain how it does.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You think Abel decided that he needed to grab a few sheep - firstborns - and slaughter them, cut them up, take their fat out, and offer those along with the other parts, in order to worship and praise God? Interesting.
Seems to me you just decided you could throw any thing in, as an answer, but it doesn't make any sense. Why would you think man could not worship and praise God without the fat of rams? Did Adam not do so for decades? He could easily have grabbed the biggest animal and chopped it up, and offer the largest sacrifice ever.
I don't see it making sense. Perhaps you can explain how it does.

I didn't answer this willy nilly. I think that the sacrifices were meant to worship God. Is that the only way to worship God? No. But it was the way that made sense in that culture. Remember that MOST of the sacrifices Israel made were not for atonement, and even those that were, were solely for unintentional sins. This idea that seems to be floating around that sacrifices are al for sin atonement just has no support in the sacred texts.

 

[nPeace]

I didn't answer this willy nilly. I think that the sacrifices were meant to worship God. Is that the only way to worship God? No. But it was the way that made sense in that culture. Remember that MOST of the sacrifices Israel made were not for atonement, and even those that were, were solely for unintentional sins. This idea that seems to be floating around that sacrifices are al for sin atonement just has no support in the sacred texts.

Culture? We were talking about Abel... you know... the second son. What culture do you mean? Nowhere did we read that Adam had that custom.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Culture? We were talking about Abel... you know... the second son. What culture do you mean? Nowhere did we read that Adam had that custom.

I'm talking about the culture that generated the story of cain and abel. It's not a historical account you know, it's legend.

 

[nPeace]

I'm talking about the culture that generated the story of cain and abel. It's not a historical account you know, it's legend.

Are you a Jew?
What sect of Jews do you speak for? Or is this your personal view?
Do you usually go surfing on the first Sabbath, during the reading of the Parashah? Or do you attend but wonder why you are there?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Are you a Jew?
What sect of Jews do you speak for? Or is this your personal view?
Do you usually go surfing on the first Sabbath, during the reading of the Parashah? Or do you attend but wonder why you are there?

I'm a non-denominational Jew who is comfortable in any synagogue. However, I probably feel most comfortable with the Conservatives, since that is where my observance level falls. Theologically, I'm more on the liberal side.

No need to get snotty with me. I take the Sabbath and the reading of the Torah very seriously. I'm just not a fundamentalist about it.

 

[pearl]

I take the Sabbath and the reading of the Torah very seriously. I'm just not a fundamentalist about it.

I remember a rabbi addressing our Scripture study stating that to accept only the literalist or fundamentalist reading of the Torah was to 'see only her outer garments.'