Same Sex Marrige By a Church.

[Archer]

I don't think there was quite the distinction between civil/military that you perceive.

Don't seem military to me, perhaps I am misinterpreting?

Leviticus 18

Unlawful Sexual Relations

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'I am the LORD your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD. 6 " 'No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD.
7 " 'Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.
8 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's wife; that would dishonor your father.
9 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.
10 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter; that would dishonor you.
11 " 'Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father's wife, born to your father; she is your sister.
12 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's sister; she is your father's close relative.
13 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your mother's sister, because she is your mother's close relative.
14 " 'Do not dishonor your father's brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.
15 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son's wife; do not have relations with her.
16 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your brother's wife; that would dishonor your brother.
17 " 'Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.
18 " 'Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.
19 " 'Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.
20 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her.
21 " 'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed [a] to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
23 " 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.
24 " 'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.
29 " 'Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' "

 

[sojourner]

Don't seem military to me, perhaps I am misinterpreting?

Leviticus 18

Unlawful Sexual Relations

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'I am the LORD your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD. 6 " 'No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD.
7 " 'Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.
8 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's wife; that would dishonor your father.
9 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.
10 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter; that would dishonor you.
11 " 'Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father's wife, born to your father; she is your sister.
12 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's sister; she is your father's close relative.
13 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your mother's sister, because she is your mother's close relative.
14 " 'Do not dishonor your father's brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.
15 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son's wife; do not have relations with her.
16 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your brother's wife; that would dishonor your brother.
17 " 'Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.
18 " 'Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.
19 " 'Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.
20 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her.
21 " 'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed [a] to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
23 " 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.
24 " 'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.
29 " 'Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' "

I don't see your point. It doesn't make any difference. This is purity law and not particularly moral commentary.

 

[Archer]

It's important to know why it was condemned, as well as exactly what was being condemned. Apparently the fundigelicals think that two men or two women, living in a loving and monogamous relationship, in a culture that is neither theocratic nor driven by honor/shame, is exactly the same as battlefield rape in the ancient Middle East.

In that place and time, that sort of activity was fairly common...
plus there was the whole purity law schtick, as well as laws concerning honor/shame.

I don't think there was quite the distinction between civil/military that you perceive.

I don't see your point. It doesn't make any difference. This is purity law and not particularly moral commentary.

Because you brought up the usage of the old ordinances that is why!

Change the subject, twist it as you like but it was not speaking to battelfield rape, it was speaking to sexual acts.

FAIL.

 

[sojourner]

Because you brought up the usage of the old ordinances that is why!

Change the subject, twist it as you like but it was not speaking to battelfield rape, it was speaking to sexual acts.

FAIL.

How do you know? Are you an expert in Biblical law?

 

[Archer]

How do you know? Are you an expert in Biblical law?

I know how to read! I have read commentaries.

 

[sojourner]

I know how to read! I have read commentaries.

None of which makes you and expert. I've read anatomy books, myself. Don't make me doctor, though.
(BTW, "battlefield rape," a general term, covering a number of actions, some of which may not be military, is a sexual act.)

 

[Archer]

None of which makes you and expert. I've read anatomy books, myself. Don't make me doctor, though.
(BTW, "battlefield rape," a general term, covering a number of actions, some of which may not be military, is a sexual act.)

So I guess no one is an expert? I don't write the commentaries.

 

[sojourner]

So I guess no one is an expert? I don't write the commentaries.

There are experts. You aren't one of them just because you "read a commentary."
There are other things at play here besides simply "reading the text" and "reading a commentary." If you cite "reading the text" as the best way of understanding the text, you may not be reading the most scholarly commentaries, either -- ones that speak, not only to the "whats" but the possible "whys" of what the text says. I think there's sufficient literary evidence to tell us that the text in question does not necessarily inform us of the acceptability of homosexual marriage today.

 

[Archer]

There are experts. You aren't one of them just because you "read a commentary."
There are other things at play here besides simply "reading the text" and "reading a commentary." If you cite "reading the text" as the best way of understanding the text, you may not be reading the most scholarly commentaries, either -- ones that speak, not only to the "whats" but the possible "whys" of what the text says. I think there's sufficient literary evidence to tell us that the text in question does not necessarily inform us of the acceptability of homosexual marriage today.

Do as you will. Twist as you like. And no they do not apply today, the new testament does, and Paul spoke on this.

 

[DallasApple]

Not this heterosexual man. Lesbian action is no turn on.

I didnt mean "all men" (heterosexual)

But its a "common fantasy".

Love

Dallas

 

[sojourner]

Do as you will. Twist as you like. And no they do not apply today, the new testament does, and Paul spoke on this.

Exegesis untwists what has been twisted by haphazard reading.
Not sure even Paul's points of view necessarily apply, as they are generally read.

 

[Archer]

So an interpretation can be exactly what is not said?

I guess if I kick someone in the groin they should see it as an act of affection? Works for me

 

[sojourner]

So an interpretation can be exactly what is not said?

I guess if I kick someone in the groin they should see it as an act of affection? Works for me

Yes. What we interpret is often not what was meant. Especially since we're dealing with reading through filters of culture, language, prior teaching, etc.

 

[OneThatGotAway]

Originally Posted by Archer
Don't seem military to me, perhaps I am misinterpreting?

Leviticus 18

Unlawful Sexual Relations

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'I am the LORD your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD. 6 " 'No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD.
7 " 'Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.
8 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's wife; that would dishonor your father.
9 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.
10 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter; that would dishonor you.
11 " 'Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father's wife, born to your father; she is your sister.
12 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's sister; she is your father's close relative.
13 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your mother's sister, because she is your mother's close relative.
14 " 'Do not dishonor your father's brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.
15 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son's wife; do not have relations with her.
16 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your brother's wife; that would dishonor your brother.
17 " 'Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.
18 " 'Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.
19 " 'Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.
20 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her.
21 " 'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed [a] to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
23 " 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.
24 " 'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.
29 " 'Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' "

I don't see your point. It doesn't make any difference. This is purity law and not particularly moral commentary.

The above scriptures are not limited to just military situation but to all situation dealing with the sons of Aedam (i.e. mankind in general). The context and the majority opinion supports such claim that the unlawful sexual acts are an abomination to the Almighty YAHWEH no matter if man is at war or at peace.

 

[Archer]

Yes. What we interpret is often not what was meant. Especially since we're dealing with reading through filters of culture, language, prior teaching, etc.

Tell that to the guy who just busted my nose! I told him that I loved him as a brother and gave him a swift kick. The rest is history.

 

[comradesoul]

You don't have to be a religonist or even a believer in God to understand that same sex sexual relations is ridiculous. But I have found that if you have to try to convince someone of the differences in roles God (or nature) has assigned to men and woman the person will never understand.

It's something like trying to prove the sun is high in the sky to someone who insists it is not.

(Looked for an icon of a man banging his head against the wall but couldn't find one.)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You don't have to be a religonist or even a believer in God to understand that same sex sexual relations is ridiculous.

No, you don't.

Forum rules prevent me from saying the sorts of things a person would have to be to believe that.

But I have found that if you have to try to convince someone of the differences in roles God (or nature) has assigned to men and woman the person will never understand.

If your explanation depends on a God I don't believe in or on the ability of unintelligent abstract concepts to "assign" roles to people, then yes, you're never going to convince me.

It's something like trying to prove the sun is high in the sky to someone who insists it is not.

No, it's more like trying to prove that suntanning is bad because God or nature "decided" that the only purpose of the Sun is to make crops grow.

 

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by Archer
Don't seem military to me, perhaps I am misinterpreting?

Leviticus 18

Unlawful Sexual Relations

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'I am the LORD your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD. 6 " 'No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD.
7 " 'Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.
8 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's wife; that would dishonor your father.
9 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.
10 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter; that would dishonor you.
11 " 'Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father's wife, born to your father; she is your sister.
12 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's sister; she is your father's close relative.
13 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your mother's sister, because she is your mother's close relative.
14 " 'Do not dishonor your father's brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.
15 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son's wife; do not have relations with her.
16 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your brother's wife; that would dishonor your brother.
17 " 'Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.
18 " 'Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.
19 " 'Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.
20 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her.
21 " 'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed [a] to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
23 " 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.
24 " 'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.
29 " 'Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' "





The above scriptures are not limited to just military situation but to all situation dealing with the sons of Aedam (i.e. mankind in general). The context and the majority opinion supports such claim that the unlawful sexual acts are an abomination to the Almighty YAHWEH no matter if man is at war or at peace.

And how does that speak to us, in our own cultural context?

 

[McBell]

And how does that speak to us, in our own cultural context?

ooo
oooo
I know!

It doesn't.

 

[sojourner]

Tell that to the guy who just busted my nose! I told him that I loved him as a brother and gave him a swift kick. The rest is history.

Street brawling is an entirely different matter than literary critique.