sandy, you asked for it... (nature of Hell)

[PolyHedral]

(Split from "The Design of Torture", here)

Because God has characteristics and the absence of those characteristics need to exist in order for there to be a choice.

Just trying to understand your position here. Do you believe Hell is a place of deliberate punishment (fire, pitchforks etc) or do you believe that an existence without God is agonizing of its own accord?

Basically, does God himself make not being with him unbearable or is the absence of God intrinsically unbearable?

If Hell is designed to torture people, then Meow Mix's argument is the one I'd go with. There really is no real choice provided.

If Hell is simply the absence of God (which is, of it's own accord, unbearable) then why doesn't God give humans perfect knowledge of him? It's all well and good saying that we need to make the choice of our own accord, but if I was to provide you with a choice of two rooms, one containing your heart's desire, the other containing Margaret Thatcher, it would be completely immoral of me not to EXPLICITLY tell you which room is which. The choice would still be yours, but at least you understood perfectly well what was in stock for you.

A complete bunny trail.:bunny: Start a new thread.

Voila. Now that there is a new thread, I'd really like to know what you think.

 

[Erebus]

Cheers for that Polyhedral, I'll keep an eye on this thread.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Me too, could get interesting

 

[Breathe]

opcorn:

 

[MurphtheSurf]

The fiery flaming Hell is one of the cornerstones of false religion. The ancient Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, and Babylonians taught such things. Now it is still a cornerstone of christendom.
Any serious research that goes beyond what the goofy web links of christendom teach would and should reveal to the serious inquiring mind that this so called Hell is nothing more death, eternal death.
So if there are any serious inquiring minds out there who really care to get to the bottom of this, I'll be around now and then to expand on this for you.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

The fiery flaming Hell is one of the cornerstones of false religion. The ancient Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, and Babylonians taught such things. Now it is still a cornerstone of christendom.
Any serious research that goes beyond what the goofy web links of christendom teach would and should reveal to the serious inquiring mind that this so called Hell is nothing more death, eternal death.
So if there are any serious inquiring minds out there who really care to get to the bottom of this, I'll be around now and then to expand on this for you.

No the ancient Egyptians did not teach a firey hell. You need some better sources.

 

[logician]

Wasn't the (torture) concept of hell just a mistranslation, "hell" literally meaning the ground?

It's interesting that hell as depicted in movies is most of the time pictured as a deep hole in the earth, and heaven, as somewhere "up" in the sky. These are classic superstitions from ancient times, we now know from science neither such "entities" exist in those places.

 

[Breathe]

Wasn't the (torture) concept of hell just a mistranslation, "hell" literally meaning the ground?

Yep. Hell comes from Hel, obviously. Related to the term meaning the ground or grave, cognate to "sheol" and "gehenna" as you say.


I think the idea of a torture comes from Relevation's "Lake of Fire", but even the Bible says "The Lake of Fire is the second death".

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Yep. Hell comes from Hel, obviously. Related to the term meaning the ground or grave, cognate to "sheol" and "gehenna" as you say.


I think the idea of a torture comes from Relevation's "Lake of Fire", but even the Bible says "The Lake of Fire is the second death".

Correct, the Bible says the lake of fire is the second death, IE: death of the soul. The Bible and Kemetic view of the destruction of the wicked actually agree on this, and not a firey hell like Murph mistated that the Egyptians believed in. Not surprising the Jews and Egyptians agreed on this and many other things, seeing as they were ancient neighbors.

 

[Blackdog22]

If Hell isn't actually a physical place, then when it says Jesus went into hell after his crucifiction it means he went to an invisible place?

Also, where would Satan go if there was no hell?

If you don't believe in Satan do you assume that God is actually the anti christ and he is fighting against himself?

When Jesus sent the demons called "Legion" into the flock of pigs, then where did they come from?

If you follow the Bible it is obvious there is some sort of evil going on and the Bible says that evil is sent to a burning, fiery pit. If you follow the story of the "Rich man and the Beggar," it clearly outlines a fiery place that is so terrible even a drop of water is worth groveling for. It follows that a rich man treated a poor man wickedly on this earth and when they both died the poor man went to heaven and the rich man went to hell. The rich man in pain and suffering and asks for even a drop of water from the poor man, because of how terribly hot the place was.

There are many stories in the Bible that back up the idea of Hell. The problem is not everyone knows every passage in the Bible.

Of course I don't believe in hell, but disreguarding the debate of it based on faulty knowledge doesn't sit right with me either.

 

[Atomist]

Correct, the Bible says the lake of fire is the second death, IE: death of the soul. The Bible and Kemetic view of the destruction of the wicked actually agree on this, and not a firey hell like Murph mistated that the Egyptians believed in. Not surprising the Jews and Egyptians agreed on this and many other things, seeing as they were ancient neighbors.

Sweet the lake of fire sounds AWESOME!

 

[logician]

If Hell isn't actually a physical place, then when it says Jesus went into hell after his crucifiction it means he went to an invisible place?

.

Exactly where does it say this?

 

[Blackdog22]

Exactly where does it say this?

"For you will not leave my soul in hell; neither will you allow your Holy One to see corruption. You will show me the path of life: in your presence, fulness of joy; at your right hand, pleasures for evermore...Fear not; I am the first and the last: I he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." Psalm 16:10,11; Acts 2:27,31; Revelation 1:17,18. Please read Matthew 12:38-41; I Peter 3:18,19; Matthew 27:52,53.

It is said that Jesus conquered Hell by descending into hell during the 3 days from his death to his resurrection. I of course don't believe any of this, but it is ,somewhat, supported.

Also:

"He (Jesus) was put to death in the flesh, but he was raised to life in the Spirit, in which also he went and preached to the disobedient spirits who were in prison in the days of Noah when God waited patiently while the ark was being built...For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead so that, although they have already been judged in the flesh like men, they might have life in the Spirit like God." (1 Peter 3:18-20; 4:6)

This suggests Jesus went to disobedient spirits after he died. The spirits were apparently from Noahs time, so I assume these are the people from the "Great Flood."
These people would also have to be long dead which means Jesus definitely didn't physically visit them. I ,again, think its all bollocks, but that is all there is to support this idea. I don't find it completely convincing, but many, many Christians I have run into apparently do. The argument is primarily directed at people who believe this is the case, since we are arguing Biblical writing I figure I might as well bring up all the nonsense that comes along with it.

 

[Muffled]

Wasn't the (torture) concept of hell just a mistranslation, "hell" literally meaning the ground?

It's interesting that hell as depicted in movies is most of the time pictured as a deep hole in the earth, and heaven, as somewhere "up" in the sky. These are classic superstitions from ancient times, we now know from science neither such "entities" exist in those places.

So are you trying to say the scientists are wrong , that there isn't any fire under the earth's mantle?

Are you also trying to say that scientists have seen the whole extent of the universe?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

The idea of punishing hell came largely from Dantes Inferno.

 

[PolyHedral]

So are you trying to say the scientists are wrong , that there isn't any fire under the earth's mantle?

Well, not fire as such. Only very high-pressure, high-temperature liquids. (and a big solid iron ball, but I don't think you meant that)

Are you also trying to say that scientists have seen the whole extent of the universe?

We're reasonably sure that a Heaven in the sky doesn't exist, since we can see all the way to the edge of sane physics. (Unless you're going to suggest that Heaven doesn't have atoms?)