Satan beats people up so they won't be saved

[sealchan]

No, Satan pretends to be something he is not. Satan controls the great religions of the world so people will think they are worshipping God but are actually worshipping Satan. He does not need to drag people into sin, they are very good at doing that without help.

Literalism is his greatest creation

 

[Mindmaster]

Then why would God throw Satan in Gehenna at the end? (Matthew 25:41)

Satan, at least in the Christian Bible is a manufactured bad guy -- without him, there is no reason to follow anything of the rest of what they say. Anyway, in particular, Gehenna references a refuse pile that used to be outside of the city of Jerusalem -- I have a feeling this passage was more metaphorical than literal. Revelation, as a whole, is so fantastical as to be to the point of ridiculousness. To me, it's obvious that none of that has a literal meaning.

Anyway, the Satan=bad guy thing is just a trend that the Christian's borrowed off the predecessor religions that were in the neighborhood around them. Set became the bad guy for late period Egyptians and the Ahriman of Zoroastrianism, etc.... In other words, Christian came up with nothing new not even a name which they borrowed from the Jews and then spent centuries hinging their beliefs on the boogeyman to make others comply with their beliefs. Nothing is really worse than the lies you tell yourself, if you ask me.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's like looking in a mirror at my prior self...

Jesus Christ saved from from Luciferianism and the LHP. I walked that way for many years and it only brought me ruin; ruin dressed up as sucesss. I always had another rung to climb on the ladder, another stone to step on in order to get to the big prize. It was always a little more, a bit longer, after this lesson or after this milestone, and you know what? It was all a big con, a game, a ruse. There was indeed an end destination but it was destruction and not in the gnostic sense either. It was destruction, lifeless, empty, mindless... destruction.

I recall the dogma. Yes, light was the invader, darkness was true and it came first. Darkness was alive, sentient, and light was false. It was always about reversal; the darkness was the true light, Lucifer was the only god who mattered, and pain became pleasure the mundane were too weak to understand. Morality became a stumbling block, invented to placate the masses. It was a world in reverse. Bad was good, good was stifling and sterile. Everything was permitted (not really) and my mind descend into a lawless realm where the height of human experience and endeavor was reduced to every foul lust and depravity around the sun.

It does seem we went similar but totally opposite paths and conclusions, lol.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm really not sure how you think God tortured you but it sounds like you're blaming God for something. In any case, that's part of satan's plan. Do things to people and have them blame God for it.

I was emotionally and spiritually abused within Jehovah's religion and by his ways. His ways, not satans, gave vivid nightmares of going to hell and feeling great agony. God choked the life out of me. Lucifer gave it back.

It's not petty

Its very petty to create your own problems you have to save the world from.

orry but, as we know all things are comprised of energy. Split

Without energy there is the black, cold, empty, void.

 

[EnjoyTheJourney]

He drags people into sins and makes them suffer pain and degradation so they will be forever alienated towards their Creator.

I can't help feel this God/Devil type structure prevents a persons free will to be who they truly are, and I think humans are definitely more than able to sin by themselves (and do good incidentally) without any help from anyone else.

If you release yourself from dogma and make totally unhindered choices (answering to no one), you then have to live with the consequences. A system of 'being good' and following a set of rules to please God, or citing 'the devil made me do it' could result in people essentially avoiding taking responsibility for their actions.

Being totally responsible for everything you do/say/think etc is much harder for people to cope with, as there is no one to blame, and no one to work towards pleasing (potentially no structure). Some may say it could take their idea of the entire meaning of life, which would obviously not be a healthy thing for them. I think it works very well for some people to live within this framework, and life is essentially pretty brutal so having 'a bad guy' to be able to blame for all the bad in the world is a way of dealing with it all.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Explain good without giving room for evil.

Why does good need evil to exist?

 

[sealchan]

Why does good need evil to exist?

I dont think you can describe good without creating the possibility of evil. My definition of good is that which promotes an agent's purpose or goal. This implies something evil or bad which can conflict with an agents goal.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

I dont think you can describe good without creating the possibility of evil. My definition of good is that which promotes an agent's purpose or goal. This implies something evil or bad which can conflict with an agents goal.

Not necessarily, because there is a third possibility. Something could neither conflict nor promote an agent's purpose or goal, and thus be not good or evil. For instance, suppose my goal is to push my car, which ran out of gas, a quarter mile to the gas station. If someone decided to get on the other end of the car and push in the opposite direction, then by your definition, they would be performing an "evil" action because they would be conflicting my goal. Similarly, if someone were to help me push the car toward the gas station, they would be performing a "good" action, because they would be promoting my goal. However, if someone stood by and watched, they would neither be performing a good nor an evil action, since they are neither promoting nor contradicting my goal. Suppose the possibility of a force opposing mine was removed, that is, that it was impossible to push the car in any direction away from the gas station. This does not in any way imply that the car could not be pushed toward the gas station. However, I still have the choice between pushing it there and not pushing it there. Thus, the removal of evil does not remove good, because good is still distinguishable from non-good (neutral) even if evil does not exist, and thus good is still definable in the absence of the existence of evil.

 

[74x12]

I was emotionally and spiritually abused within Jehovah's religion and by his ways. His ways, not satans, gave vivid nightmares of going to hell and feeling great agony. God choked the life out of me. Lucifer gave it back.

Which religion is that?

Its very petty to create your own problems you have to save the world from.

It won't be petty. Every small stone and inch of the new Jerusalem will be tested by fire. It boils down to Philippians 2:5-9. I believe God humbled Himself as a human; carried the cross and expects us to do the same. Then just as Jesus was highly exalted; we will be highly exalted with Him as His own siblings and children of God.

It's not an easy road; but what is easy? Jesus is the tested stone, the Cornerstone of the great city. It's not going to be petty ... no one can say that. Even if they disagreed with God's methods for obtaining it. They couldn't rationally disagree with the result. As it will be shining like the most flawless jewel; full of radiant Light when it descends out of the sky.

God's perfection will be known; it will be the joy of the whole earth.

Without energy there is the black, cold, empty, void.

Theory of relativity is that even space is connected with time. The space time continuum. So not even empty space is true nothingness.

But, what would you find in black, empty, cold, space?

 

[74x12]

SO funny! IF it was 'obvious' then you'd have far more verifiable evidence for your Satan than I have for my magical fairies. Sadly, you do NOT. As it is, your Satan is JUST as obvious as my magical fairies... which is to say, they are BOTH made up nonsense.

Maybe fairies aren't such a stupid idea as you think. But, there are likely far more people that can give you verifiable accounts of demonic encounters than there are of ones talking about encounters with fairies. However, I wouldn't write off either group of people without giving it serious consideration.

 

[74x12]

Satan, at least in the Christian Bible is a manufactured bad guy -- without him, there is no reason to follow anything of the rest of what they say. Anyway, in particular, Gehenna references a refuse pile that used to be outside of the city of Jerusalem -- I have a feeling this passage was more metaphorical than literal. Revelation, as a whole, is so fantastical as to be to the point of ridiculousness. To me, it's obvious that none of that has a literal meaning.

Yes, gehenna was outside Jerusalem; but God uses metaphors and similes to speak of heavenly things. The point is that God also has His own place to burn the "trash" which is apparently in heaven. You've admitted you talk to spirits before. So then why is it weird to see the Bible talk about spirits as literal beings?

As for Satan being called a 7 headed red dragon/serpent. It goes back to leviathan etc.

Anyway, the Satan=bad guy thing is just a trend that the Christian's borrowed off the predecessor religions that were in the neighborhood around them. Set became the bad guy for late period Egyptians and the Ahriman of Zoroastrianism, etc.... In other words, Christian came up with nothing new not even a name which they borrowed from the Jews and then spent centuries hinging their beliefs on the boogeyman to make others comply with their beliefs. Nothing is really worse than the lies you tell yourself, if you ask me.

Christians didn't need to come up with anything "new" because we just need to repeat the truth that already was. If Satan is real then it makes sense that people would talk about him. And that's exactly what they've done.

 

[sealchan]

Not necessarily, because there is a third possibility. Something could neither conflict nor promote an agent's purpose or goal, and thus be not good or evil. For instance, suppose my goal is to push my car, which ran out of gas, a quarter mile to the gas station. If someone decided to get on the other end of the car and push in the opposite direction, then by your definition, they would be performing an "evil" action because they would be conflicting my goal. Similarly, if someone were to help me push the car toward the gas station, they would be performing a "good" action, because they would be promoting my goal. However, if someone stood by and watched, they would neither be performing a good nor an evil action, since they are neither promoting nor contradicting my goal. Suppose the possibility of a force opposing mine was removed, that is, that it was impossible to push the car in any direction away from the gas station. This does not in any way imply that the car could not be pushed toward the gas station. However, I still have the choice between pushing it there and not pushing it there. Thus, the removal of evil does not remove good, because good is still distinguishable from non-good (neutral) even if evil does not exist, and thus good is still definable in the absence of the existence of evil.

Your example is logical but I wonder if it is practical or real. You seem to take away the possibility of evil but what damage do you do to physics in the process? Can an object be moved toward a goal and there not be a starting point toward which that object might be returned by a contrary process?

 

[QuestioningMind]

Maybe fairies aren't such a stupid idea as you think. But, there are likely far more people that can give you verifiable accounts of demonic encounters than there are of ones talking about encounters with fairies. However, I wouldn't write off either group of people without giving it serious consideration.

I guess that shouldn't surprise me in the least. IF you can believe in a silly Satan being with zero verifiable evidence, it makes sense that you'd also believe in my totally make-believe magical fairies with absolute zero verifiable evidence as well. Clearly you are willing to believe absolutely any fantastical claim, regardless of how little evidence there is to support it. And if you're willing to buy into Satan and magical fairies, WHY NOT add in demonic possession while we're at it.

Oh, and I'd LOVE to hear what you considered to be VERIFIABLE evidence for demonic possession. If demons could actually be VERIFIED then we'd have an entire branch of legitimate science studying the demon phenomenon. As it is, only gullible children believe in demons and magical fairies.. and big bad boogeymen like Satan.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Which religion is that?

Christianity.

 

[74x12]

Christianity.

So evangelical?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So evangelical?

Does it matter? Jehovah would see me dead for a few things. That is from the bible, and not dependent upon denomination

 

[74x12]

Does it matter? Jehovah would see me dead for a few things. That is from the bible, and not dependent upon denomination

No, you're alive so God doesn't want you dead.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No, you're alive so God doesn't want you dead.

Or could it mean that god doesn't exist or has become impotent? He struck people dead for less in the OT, after all.
And, yes, his mandate is that I die. Many times he mentions he wants me dead for apostasy. But here I am.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Someone was saying that satan goes through the orchard and beats up all the fruit before the reapers can pick them. So all the fruit is bruised and the reapers will get their hands messy when they gather the fruit in the end time.

Jesus ate with sinners. I think the world is a very messed up place and so no one can be perfect here; except Jesus. But what did Jesus do? He took all the sins of the world on Himself.

 

[SugarOcean]

He drags people into sins and makes them suffer pain and degradation so they will be forever alienated towards their Creator.

1 Peter 5:8-9
2 Corinthians 2:11

Isaiah 42:22
But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore.

Or, like Job, he tests them to see how much they can bear thinking they are their own god. Testing their ego-centrism, and self-absorption, to see if they'll reach for some higher power to assist their walk through the life that power created of itself and for them, a reflection of itself.

Jeremiah 29:13, “You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.”