The Crimson Universe
Active Member
Is Satan, Lucifer and the Devil the same entity as per the Abrahamic texts?
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Satan, Lucifer and the Devil
- Thread starter The Crimson Universe
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No.
Satan in the Tanakh is an angel working for God, in Jewish thought. Lucifer and the Devil are Christian terns and are not used.
Lucifer is a Christian term meaning light-bearer or morning star used to refer to Jesus. This is how it is used in Revelation and in the Latin Easter Exultet.
The Devil is a Christian word used to describe an evil fallen angel; a term only used in the NT to refer to how Christians see Satan.
Satan in the Tanakh is an angel working for God, in Jewish thought. Lucifer and the Devil are Christian terns and are not used.
Lucifer is a Christian term meaning light-bearer or morning star used to refer to Jesus. This is how it is used in Revelation and in the Latin Easter Exultet.
The Devil is a Christian word used to describe an evil fallen angel; a term only used in the NT to refer to how Christians see Satan.
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The Crimson Universe
Active Member
Isn't Lucifer the fallen angel who rebelled against God?
No, this is a later misunderstanding of the term. In a Biblical passage the King of Babylon is compared to the planet Venus, which is visible during the daytime and is thus called the Morning Star or Light-Bearer, and the King is rebuked for thinking himself to be like God. The King then falls, metaphorically, and Babylon goes with him.
In the Latin Vulgate the term used to translate 'Morning Star' is Lucifer, and some Christians took this passage to be referring to the fall of Satan, as well as the passage in Ezekiel about the King of Tyre, who also falls, and who is compared to a cherub in the Garden of Eden.
The Lucifer being referred to here is a literal planet and the word is not found in the original Hebrew, which just uses Light-Bearer/Morning Star to poetically refer to Venus as visible during daytime.
Historically and today Lucifer is a positive term, a title, used to denote one who shines, brings light, and is used of Jesus in Revelation and the liturgy.
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RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
In Milton’s Paradise Lost he is, yes. A hugely influential poem on subsequent Christian thought, though not widely read these days. One way of interpreting the character of Satan in Milton’s epic, is as a metaphor for the ego. The all consuming pride that will not let a man submit to the will of God, thus denying him a peaceful return to the garden. The enemy who insinuates his way into paradise, and makes “a Heav’n of Hell, a Hell of Heav’n”
Brian2
Veteran Member
Lucifer comes from Isa 14:12 in some versions. The passage is deemed to be about Satan.
Isaiah 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven, O day star, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the ground, O destroyer of nations.
Not many translations use Lucifer (see King James Version as one example)
The Devil and Satan are seen as the same entity in the Bible and that is also the serpent in Eden, the one who is punished by God for what he did, and so is not God's trusted and faithful servant in Eden or anywhere else in the Bible.
Can you give a reference to where Satan is called 'the Devil' in the Tanakh?
The Crimson Universe
Active Member
Why do you think many people today associates the Christian Devil with the goat headed God Baphomet?
Wiki says, Baphomet was worshipped by the Templars and by some muslims in the past as well. I didn't find much about the origin of this God though.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
I've read that the so called morning star Lucifer (Venus) is called fallen when it becomes the evening star heralding the darkness of night. Venus spends half its time as the morning star and the other half the Evening Star
syo
Well-Known Member
Here are the passages in question in the Tanakh:
King of Babylon,
When the Lord has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
How the oppressor has ceased!
How his insolence has ceased!
The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked,
the sceptre of rulers,
that struck down the peoples in wrath
with unceasing blows,
that ruled the nations in anger
with unrelenting persecution.
The whole earth is at rest and quiet;
they break forth into singing.
The cypresses exult over you,
the cedars of Lebanon, saying,
“Since you were laid low,
no one comes to cut us down.”
Sheol beneath is stirred up
to meet you when you come;
it rouses the shades to greet you,
all who were leaders of the earth;
it raises from their thrones
all who were kings of the nations.
All of them will speak
and say to you:
“You, too, have become as weak as we!
You have become like us!”
Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
and the sound of your harps;
maggots are the bed beneath you,
and worms are your covering.
How you are fallen from heaven,
O Morning Star, son of Dawn!
How you are cut down to the ground,
you who laid the nations low!
You said to yourself,
“I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit on the mount of assembly
on the heights of Zaphon;
I will ascend to the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”
But you are brought down to Sheol,
to the depths of the Pit.
Those who see you will stare at you
and ponder over you:
“Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
who shook kingdoms,
who made the world like a desert
and overthrew its cities,
who would not let his prisoners go home?”
All the kings of the nations lie in glory,
each in his own tomb,
but you are cast out, away from your grave,
like loathsome carrion,
clothed with the dead, those pierced by the sword,
who go down to the stones of the Pit
like a corpse trampled underfoot.
You will not be joined with them in burial
because you have destroyed your land;
you have killed your people.
May the descendants of evildoers
nevermore be named!
Prepare a place of slaughter for his sons
because of the guilt of their father.
Let them never rise to possess the earth
or cover the face of the world with cities.
I will rise up against them, says the Lord of hosts, and will cut off from Babylon name and remnant, offspring and posterity, says the Lord. And I will make it a possession of the screech owl and pools of water, and I will sweep it with the broom of destruction, says the Lord of hosts.
King of Tyre,
The word of the Lord came to me: Mortal, say to the prince of Tyre: Thus says the Lord God:
Because your heart is proud
and you have said, “I am a god;
I sit in the seat of the gods,
in the heart of the seas,”
yet you are but a mortal and no god,
though you compare your mind
with the mind of a god.
You are indeed wiser than Daniel;
no secret is hidden from you;
by your wisdom and your understanding
you have amassed wealth for yourself
and have gathered gold and silver
into your treasuries.
By your great wisdom in trade
you have increased your wealth,
and your heart has become proud in your wealth.
Therefore thus says the Lord God:
Because you compare your mind
with the mind of a god,
therefore, I will bring strangers against you,
the most terrible of the nations;
they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom
and defile your splendour.
They shall thrust you down to the Pit,
and you shall die a violent death
in the heart of the seas.
Will you still say, “I am a god,”
in the presence of those who kill you,
though you are but a mortal and no god,
in the hands of those who pierce you?
You shall die the death of the uncircumcised
by the hand of foreigners,
for I have spoken, says the Lord God.
Moreover the word of the Lord came to me: Mortal, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him: Thus says the Lord God:
You were the signet of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone was your covering,
carnelian, chrysolite, and moonstone,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise, and emerald;
and worked in gold were your settings
and your engravings.
On the day that you were created
they were prepared.
You were a cherub;
I placed you on the holy mountain of God;
you walked among the stones of fire.
You were blameless in your ways
from the day that you were created,
until iniquity was found in you.
In the abundance of your trade
you were filled with violence, and you sinned,
so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God,
and I drove you out, O guardian cherub,
from among the stones of fire.
Your heart was proud because of your beauty;
you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendour.
I cast you to the ground;
I exposed you before kings,
to feast their eyes on you.
By the multitude of your iniquities,
in the unrighteousness of your trade,
you profaned your sanctuaries.
So I brought out fire from within you;
it consumed you,
and I turned you to ashes on the earth
in the sight of all who saw you.
All who know you among the peoples
are appalled at you;
you have come to a dreadful end
and shall be no more forever.
@The Crimson Universe
From my Handbook of Catholic Theology,
'The thesis that the devil is one of the highest (or the highest) of the angels who rebelled against God or indeed, the highest of all creatures who became, through his arrogance, the lowest (Origen), is very widespread among the Fathers, even though it lacks solid Biblical foundations.'
Pg.172.
From my Handbook of Catholic Theology,
'The thesis that the devil is one of the highest (or the highest) of the angels who rebelled against God or indeed, the highest of all creatures who became, through his arrogance, the lowest (Origen), is very widespread among the Fathers, even though it lacks solid Biblical foundations.'
Pg.172.
Bapohmet is a misrendering of 'Muhammad' and he was seen as evil by Mediaeval Christians, with Muslims seen as worshipping him.
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Notthedarkweb
Indian phil, German idealism, Rawls
As pointed out, there isn't much scriptural assertion for this proposition, but with the powers of Sin and Death, Satan (entering in Rom 16:20) is intended by Paul as a challenger to God's sovereignty, which is probably the earliest attested instance in Christian thought of Satan as a sort of entity that is a general challenge to the Abrahamic believer as opposed to being a term for, as used in Job, an attorney of God.
The identification of Lucifer with the Pauline concept of Satan is a result of Roman theologians' misinterpreting the translation of Isaiah into the Vulgate Bible and understanding Isaiah's sarcastic reference to his texts opponent as the "morning star" as referring to Satan.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
hink you need to study Christianity a little more. Lucifer was the name of one of the angels. He rebeled against God and was put out of heaven. His name was changed to Satan.
This is something believed my many Christians, but finds no proof in their scripture. If you have any, bring it. Neither Lucifer nor Satan started as names but titles.
See also Lucifer of Cagliari - Wikipedia
In the 300s C.E. he was called 'Lucifer' - clearly no-one saw this term as applying to the Devil.
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The serpent is a metaphor. It means it is sneaky in how it confuses you and leads astray, as it to Adam (a). This is the first hint to recognizing Satan.
The other hints is that non-judgment type luminosity and "arguments" against the judging light of God's anointed, is given by this creature as central authority. Of course, he could not fool anyone with presenting falsehood purely as it is, and so layers it with truths, removing truths as you get closer to his view. Thus he bears "light" that makes the true light appear dark and evil.
Another thing to keep in mind is what Gog and Magog is. Gog is who Satan is their direct companion and Magog are followers of Gog. They are sorcerers who been here ancient times, and always plan against Prophets (a) and rally to corrupt revelation.
God does not deceive nor do Angels on his behalf deceive. So its definitely a disobedient creature.
Sand Dancer
Currently catless
Color me impressed.
Sand Dancer
Currently catless
I want to see your bookshelf.
