Satanist murders

[Me Myself]

Satan worshippers murder, devour four teens

Devil worshippers face life for ritual Satanic killing | World news | The Guardian

I`ll be direct, some of this was discussed on the DIR, and I had an opinon I prefer not to post there as I am willing to debate and I don`t consider myself a Satanist.

Sure, I am not saying all or even most(I just don`t know the statistics) Satanists would do that, but if the killers said they were Satanists, then they pretty much were.

They may have nothing to do with the kind of satanists in this forum, but they worship a deity they believe is Satan and do things they believe the deity wants them to do. Sure, they have a comp.letely different perspective on what this deity wants than other Satanists that think Satan wants the best for us and doesn`t like stabbing and killing and eating victims and all... but just because they are different kind of Satanists doesn`t magically mean that other satanists get to say "Oh yeah, they are not REAL satanists"

Sorry, but not only christians get to be called on the true scottman.

 

[Quintessence]

Yeah, the "no true scotsman" fallacy was basically what I was trying to point out in the DIR. This issue transcends any one religious demographic, though it's probably fair to say with a name like "satanism" they definitely get the short end of the stick when dealing with it. Neopaganism gets quite a bit of it too.

On the one hand, it is definitely legitimate to be concerned about the representation of minority religions in the media. There was a great article dealing with that recently on the Wild Hunt right here (link). Anti-satanic propaganda is real, and it harms both religious Satanists and Neopagans (who often get conflated with Satanism).

But let's set that side for a moment. Let's assume that someone who is a religious Satanist or Neopagan legitimately killed someone. Roughly a year ago I was listening to a podcast that featured a news story about an alleged Wiccan who committed a murder. The podcaster was livid and kept insisting the murderer couldn't possibly be a REAL Wiccan. The Wiccan Rede states, after all, to "harm none" and killing someone is obviously a violation of that. Therefore, a murderer can't possibly be Wiccan, the podcaster insisted.

I'm sorry, but no. Wiccans can commit murder. So can Christians, Jews, Hindus, Native Americans... whatever. Accept that. While I find it understandable that a group wants to distance itself from its unsavory members, it is incorrect to say that they are not what they are. What is correct is to say that their behavior is not representational of the larger movement and the religion does not necessarily endorse their behavior, not that the murderer isn’t part of that movement. If they're part of it, they're part of it. We shouldn’t lie to ourselves by claiming they're not.

People who murder are just like you and they’re just like me. They’re ordinary, everyday people. They’re white, asian, african. They’re male, female, straight, gay. They’re of any sort of religion and ideology you can think of. Their demographics may have nothing to do with why they committed a crime, but sometimes they do. Own up to it. Quit denying it. Quit telling the lie that “oh, if someone does something bad, they can’t possibly be one of us!” Guess what. They are. They’re one of you. They’re humans, just like you. They make mistakes, just like you.

 

[tempter]

Satan worshippers murder, devour four teens

Devil worshippers face life for ritual Satanic killing | World news | The Guardian

I`ll be direct, some of this was discussed on the DIR, and I had an opinon I prefer not to post there as I am willing to debate and I don`t consider myself a Satanist.

Sure, I am not saying all or even most(I just don`t know the statistics) Satanists would do that, but if the killers said they were Satanists, then they pretty much were.

They may have nothing to do with the kind of satanists in this forum, but they worship a deity they believe is Satan and do things they believe the deity wants them to do. Sure, they have a comp.letely different perspective on what this deity wants than other Satanists that think Satan wants the best for us and doesn`t like stabbing and killing and eating victims and all... but just because they are different kind of Satanists doesn`t magically mean that other satanists get to say "Oh yeah, they are not REAL satanists"

Sorry, but not only christians get to be called on the true scottman.

"... but if the killers said they were Satanists, then they pretty much were." How do you come to this conclusion? Simply because they said so? Maybe they were mentally disturbed? Maybe they weren't being truthful? If they said they were smurfs, painted their bodies blue and sang songs, would you believe that too?
Believers in Satan and God get to judge others by what they are based on their actions. Otherwise, who else would judge?

 

[Quintessence]

The thing is, unless you're a member of an organized religion that keeps track of its members in some sort of registry, affiliation with a religion is a matter of self-identification. Various other people who self-identify under the same label may or may not recognize your claim to that label, however. Extremely unorganized religious demographics like Satanism have it even worse off. They can't consistently define themselves or agree who is and isn't a Satanist. Neopaganism has the exact same problem. The umbrellas are so broad practically anybody can claim membership under some definition. IUnless you organize and set down some dogma - things that both Satanists and Neopagans are averse to - I don't see this changing. It makes us particularly easy to exploit, though as Neopaganism has matured as a religious movement, it has gotten considerably more difficult to pull off. We have organizations like the Lady Liberty League that wrestle with discrimination cases and a number of outstanding PR representatives. I don't get the impression the Satanists really have anybody to serve as good PR folks; if they do I am unaware of them.

 

[Me Myself]

Believers in Satan and God get to judge others by what they are based on their actions. Otherwise, who else would judge?

So... you don`t know if someone is a satanist unless some SATANIST tells you he is a satanist... hopefully it won`t take you too long to figure out where the problem is here.

 

[jasonwill2]

Satan worshippers murder, devour four teens

Devil worshippers face life for ritual Satanic killing | World news | The Guardian

I`ll be direct, some of this was discussed on the DIR, and I had an opinon I prefer not to post there as I am willing to debate and I don`t consider myself a Satanist.

Sure, I am not saying all or even most(I just don`t know the statistics) Satanists would do that, but if the killers said they were Satanists, then they pretty much were.

They may have nothing to do with the kind of satanists in this forum, but they worship a deity they believe is Satan and do things they believe the deity wants them to do. Sure, they have a comp.letely different perspective on what this deity wants than other Satanists that think Satan wants the best for us and doesn`t like stabbing and killing and eating victims and all... but just because they are different kind of Satanists doesn`t magically mean that other satanists get to say "Oh yeah, they are not REAL satanists"

Sorry, but not only christians get to be called on the true scottman.

THEY WERE MENTALLY ILL REVERSE CHRISTIANS!

"... but if the killers said they were Satanists, then they pretty much were." How do you come to this conclusion? Simply because they said so? Maybe they were mentally disturbed? Maybe they weren't being truthful? If they said they were smurfs, painted their bodies blue and sang songs, would you believe that too?
Believers in Satan and God get to judge others by what they are based on their actions. Otherwise, who else would judge?

Agreed, people need to stop blaming Satan for their actions. I believe that Satan demands personal responsibility of everyone; these kids have no excuse to say "the devil made me do it".

 

[Me Myself]

THEY WERE MENTALLY ILL REVERSE CHRISTIANS!

who prayed to a deity they called Satan.

There are a lot of mentaly ill christians out there. You did not invent the word "Satanist" and do not get a monopoly on it.

I give that they give bad rep to all satanists, but wasn`t "satanist" a term invented by the church to begin with? to talk about precisely the kind of people this news are talking about?

Ironically, "Satan" was first defined by jews and then by christians, so if someone should get to say what Satan is it would be:

-Jews

-Christians (probably including "reverse" christians)

-Satanists

so you truly need to leave everyone define them as they please or your own definition will have a very narrow legitimacy.

 

[jasonwill2]

But let's set that side for a moment. Let's assume that someone who is a religious Satanist or Neopagan legitimately killed someone. Roughly a year ago I was listening to a podcast that featured a news story about an alleged Wiccan who committed a murder. The podcaster was livid and kept insisting the murderer couldn't possibly be a REAL Wiccan. The Wiccan Rede states, after all, to "harm none" and killing someone is obviously a violation of that. Therefore, a murderer can't possibly be Wiccan, the podcaster insisted.

I'm sorry, but no. Wiccans can commit murder. So can Christians, Jews, Hindus, Native Americans... whatever. \

I agree, however if your digging up dead girls and eating their hearts there is more going on then simply your religion; people are blaming Satanism when it's not the cause, mental illness is. People don't realize that actually this kind of "Satanism" is closer to pop culture then anything I have ever seen to call itself Satanic, or even Christian Theology at that. If your trying to lead people away from Christ, it doesn't help if people do this kind of thing in your name, right? It doesn't make any sense from either a Christian or Satanic view point, only from the view point of mental illness. These kids probably just took the idea what they thought would support their actions (complete evil) and ran with it wild.

I could murder someone, but I wouldn't blame it on my religion. But if I started eating dead murder victims something really bad would be up, that goes beyond my religion.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

You see, Satanists, even theistic satanists, don't pray or worship satan. The only ones that appear to are definitely outside of the definition of a satanist in most opinion.

But that's all semantics, if you consider them satanists then satanists did commit the crime, and?

People from every religion has murderers. So I don't really understand your argument. We all will admit they called themselves satanists, we might not agree on the definition of satanist, but even if we did, what is the argument?

 

[Me Myself]

You see, Satanists, even theistic satanists, don't pray or worship satan. The only ones that appear to are definitely outside of the definition of a satanist in most opinion.

But that's all semantics, if you consider them satanists then satanists did commit the crime, and?

People from every religion has murderers. So I don't really understand your argument. We all will admit they called themselves satanists, we might not agree on the definition of satanist, but even if we did, what is the argument?

The argument is wheter or not they are satanists

I say if they pray to a deity they call Satan, and they define themselves as Satanists, then they are satanists. I wouldn`t deem them the same kind of satanists that ar ein this forum, I would deem them to have complewtely different beliefs, but I know their beliefs arte centered on the figure of Satan.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

The argument is wheter or not they are satanists

I say if they pray to a deity they call Satan, and they define themselves as Satanists, then they are satanists. I wouldn`t deem them the same kind of satanists that ar ein this forum, I would deem them to have complewtely different beliefs, but I know their beliefs arte centered on the figure of Satan.

If someone worships Jesus but is anti-Yahweh and they call themselves a Christian, are they a Christian?

 

[Me Myself]

Actually, here is some Oxford dictionary:

satanism Pronunciation: /ˈsātnˌizəm/

Syllabification:OnOff
(also Satanism)
Definition of satanism
noun
the worship of Satan, typically involving a travesty of Christian symbols and practices, such as placing a cross upside down.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Actually, here is some Oxford dictionary:

satanism Pronunciation: /ˈsātnˌizəm/

Syllabification:OnOff
(also Satanism)
Definition of satanism
noun
the worship of Satan, typically involving a travesty of Christian symbols and practices, such as placing a cross upside down.

Little knowledge is known of it is all, I'm sure if this was a Dark Ages world the definition of Wicca would be about devil worshiping as well.

 

[Me Myself]

Little knowledge is known of it is all, I'm sure if this was a Dark Ages world the definition of Wicca would be about devil worshiping as well.

The oxford dictionary is the authority on English language. going against it makes no sense when we are talking of definitions.

So, to the least, "Worshipper of Satan" becomes ONE of the meanings of Satanist, even if more exist.

 

[Music]

This has more to do with hollywood and less to do with satanism, I suspect.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

The oxford dictionary is the authority on English language. going against it makes no sense when we are talking of definitions.

So, to the least, "Worshipper of Satan" becomes ONE of the meanings of Satanist, even if more exist.

If you look at the suffix '-ist' means the act of. A worshiper/follower of Satan would be a Satanian.

 

[Me Myself]

If you look at the suffix '-ist' means the act of. A worshiper/follower of Satan would be a Satanian.

Are you saying that the Oxford dictionary is wronger than you on a definition?

 

[Me Myself]

According to English language, the people of those articles were (obviously mentally ill) Satanists, or say people into Satanism.

Even if not into the specific way of Satanism you fancy or even if completely opposite or different than the many other forms of satanism.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Are you saying that the Oxford dictionary is wronger than you on a definition?

Not my definition, the actual ideas of the people who coined the term "Satanist".

 

[The Sum of Awe]

According to English language, the people of those articles were (obviously mentally ill) Satanists, or say people into Satanism.

Even if not into the specific way of Satanism you fancy or even if completely opposite or different than the many other forms of satanism.

Just because Y calls itself X doesn't mean it is X.