Saudi cleric says earth doesn't rotate

[FearGod]

Rotation and orbital motion are two very distinct motions

The Earth rotates daily with an intrinsic maximum equatorial speed which reduces across latitudes towards either poles.

All parts of the Earth orbit the Sun at the same speed at any given moment (ignoring variations across an orbital period noted by Kepler).

You cannot interchange one with motion with the other and with good reason because the confusion led to one of the most astonishing claims ever .

"Rotating around" and orbiting are giving the same meaning.

One other example from Nasa

The Earth rotates around the Sun and the Moon rotates around the Earth.
NASA - What is a satellite?

 

[Gerald Kelleher]

And not all object that orbit around another object, will rotate on its own axis. (For instance, the moon orbited around the Earth, but the moon itself, never rotate or spin on its own axis. This is the reason why we always see the same face of the moon; we never get to see the other side of the moon, unless we are on spaceship and fly to the other side.)
Learn to use the right words, Union, because you are sounding uneducated, whenever you reply here.

I don't think you realize the significance of your statement regarding rotation and orbital motion however Kepler would agree with your statement on the moon's orbital motion and besides you get a fairly good idea how this astronomer considered why the Earth orbits the Sun and the moon orbits the Earth -

"The Sun and the Earth rotate on their own axes...The purpose of this motion is to confer motion on the planets located around them;on the six primary planets in the case of the Sun,and on the moon in the case of the Earth.On the other hand the moon does not rotate on the axis of its own body,as its spots prove " Kepler

Contemporary astronomers would dispute this as they insist the moon spins but this error was made centuries ago by misreading Kepler's Somnium where rotation/ revolution was inserted where 'orbital motion' would have been appropriate . The joy of the internet is that the offending text is available -

Kepler's Somnium: The Dream, Or Posthumous Work on Lunar Astronomy - Johannes Kepler - Google Books

I worked this out myself a long time ago so fair dues for bringing up an important distinction which has to be dealt with among other important matters.

 

[Jumi]

Misreading Kepler doesn't have anything to do with what's verifiable now. In science, we are way past anything people thought centuries ago, even ones who were once ahead of their times.

 

[Gerald Kelleher]

"Rotating around" and orbiting are giving the same meaning.

One other example from Nasa

The Earth rotates around the Sun and the Moon rotates around the Earth.
NASA - What is a satellite?

Look, common sense calling - a rotating object has a maximum intrinsic speed at its widest circumference whether it is the outer rim of a wheel or the equator of the Earth and diminishes towards the axle or North/South poles.

Orbital motion is where all parts travel around a central object at the same speed.

The wheels of your car are rotating going fastest where the thread are in contact with the road but all parts of the car travelling around (orbiting) a traffic island move at the same speed.

 

[gnostic]

I don't think you realize the significance of your statement regarding rotation and orbital motion however Kepler would agree with your statement on the moon's orbital motion and besides you get a fairly good idea how this astronomer considered why the Earth orbits the Sun and the moon orbits the Earth -

"The Sun and the Earth rotate on their own axes...The purpose of this motion is to confer motion on the planets located around them;on the six primary planets in the case of the Sun,and on the moon in the case of the Earth.On the other hand the moon does not rotate on the axis of its own body,as its spots prove " Kepler

Contemporary astronomers would dispute this as they insist the moon spins but this error was made centuries ago by misreading Kepler's Somnium where rotation/ revolution was inserted where 'orbital motion' would have been appropriate . The joy of the internet is that the offending text is available -

Kepler's Somnium: The Dream, Or Posthumous Work on Lunar Astronomy - Johannes Kepler - Google Books

I worked this out myself a long time ago so fair dues for bringing up an important distinction which has to be dealt with among other important matters.

Look, Gerald.

While I appreciate you giving me a more in-depth information about the orbital and rotational motions of the Earth, and its relationship to the Sun, I am simply trying to explain to Muslims here, just the basic differences between orbital motion and rotational motion, and how each term (orbit and rotate) should be used in what context.

I am not interested in giving them more information, which they might not understand; just trying to give them the most basic context and usage of the term they are using.

They are using "rotate" and "orbit" interchangeably, when they really shouldn't.

If you going to help me, then help me.

 

[gnostic]

Union and FearGod:

Here is an example. If you drive a car (or whatever vehicle), then you will know about "roundabout", which is a circular traffic island in the middle of intersection. I don't know if you both can drive or not, but I assuming that you can.

If you were driving around the roundabout several times, then this is sort of like the Moon orbiting around Earth, or the Earth orbiting around the Sun. Your car is essentially is orbiting around the roundabout, not rotating around the roundabout.

If a car was rotating, then it would be like turning your car, over and over, in a car crash.

I gave Union the potter's wheel example. The wheel is used for making object with clay. The wheel is spinning around. This spinning motion is what I would call "rotating", not orbiting. The potter's wheel is not travelling anywhere, it is just spinning on itself.

Orbiting on the other hand, is like roundabout example I have just given you. Other objects (like cars) is travelling around a central object (like the roundabout); this is an example of orbiting.

The Earth is the central object for the moon, because the moon move around in its orbit, around the Earth. And the Sun is the central object for the Earth and other planets, where each travel in its own elliptical orbit around the Sun.

 

[TG123456]

It's funny how everyone can claim they are clerics!

It is also funny some people forget the specific person that stated the idiocy, and blame it on the Quran and Islam. Seriously, people!

Stop it, Smart_Guy! You're asking people to use their thinking skills and apply fair standards, and in the process making shallow mockery less fun!

 

[Smart_Guy]

Stop it, Smart_Guy! You're asking people to use their thinking skills and apply fair standards, and in the process making shallow mockery less fun!

I was bored

 

[TG123456]

I was bored

Well... in that case... OK. Keep on being bored., you're doing a good job

 

[gnostic]

What a silly point ?

This is one statement from Nasa

The learners will view the planets in the solar system rotating around the sun. they will also list the types of objects that comprise the solar system.

The Solar System and Beyond | NASA

The sadness and downright silliness is that neither you nor Union can distinguish the differences and unwilling to learn.

Ok, I give up. I am giving up because you can't teach someone who don't want to learn. And because I have already wasted enough my time with the likes of you.

Be stubborn and ignorant, if you that's what you want.

 

[FearGod]

Union and FearGod:

Here is an example. If you drive a car (or whatever vehicle), then you will know about "roundabout", which is a circular traffic island in the middle of intersection. I don't know if you both can drive or not, but I assuming that you can.

Muslims can't drive cars, but we saw it on TV and i saw the traffic circle as well.

If you were driving around the roundabout several times, then this is sort of like the Moon orbiting around Earth, or the Earth orbiting around the Sun. Your car is essentially is orbiting around the roundabout, not rotating around the roundabout.

The meaning of rotation is explained better here

Rotation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If a car was rotating, then it would be like turning your car, over and over, in a car crash.

Without around, then yes, but cars in accidents will rollover and not rotating.

I gave Union the potter's wheel example. The wheel is used for making object with clay. The wheel is spinning around. This spinning motion is what I would call "rotating", not orbiting. The potter's wheel is not travelling anywhere, it is just spinning on itself.

Yes rotating around its own axis,right

Orbiting on the other hand, is like roundabout example I have just given you. Other objects (like cars) is travelling around a central object (like the roundabout); this is an example of orbiting.

Yes orbiting is rotating around an external point and not around its own axis

The Earth is the central object for the moon, because the moon move around in its orbit, around the Earth. And the Sun is the central object for the Earth and other planets, where each travel in its own elliptical orbit around the Sun.

No comment.

 

[Gerald Kelleher]

Look, Gerald.

While I appreciate you giving me a more in-depth information about the orbital and rotational motions of the Earth, and its relationship to the Sun, I am simply trying to explain to Muslims here, just the basic differences between orbital motion and rotational motion, and how each term (orbit and rotate) should be used in what context.

I am not interested in giving them more information, which they might not understand; just trying to give them the most basic context and usage of the term they are using.

They are using "rotate" and "orbit" interchangeably, when they really shouldn't.

If you going to help me, then help me.

If you walk around/orbit a central object with an outstretched arm pointing at the object ,that is basically why we see the same side of the moon at all times. In the late 17th century they made the very mistake of interpreting ' orbital revolution' for rotation in Kepler's book and concluded that the moon also spins in addition to its orbital motion around the Earth -

Astronomical Register: A Medium of Communication for Amateur Observers and ... - Google Books

In the 21st century where we have already landed on the moon, if the astronaut chooses to he can hop inside his moon buggy and drive to the far side and not see the Earth because - the moon doesn't rotate.

 

[gnostic]

The meaning of rotation is explained better here

Rotation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And yet, you didn't bother to understand the wiki link you provided.

If you've read Astronomy, Wikipedia Rotation:

In astronomy, rotation is a commonly observed phenomenon. Stars, planets and similar bodies all spin around on their axes.

It followed by next section (Rotation and revolution, Wikipedia Rotation):

While revolution is often used as a synonym for rotation, in many fields, particularly astronomy and related fields, revolution, often referred to as orbital revolution for clarity, is used when one body moves around another while rotation is used to mean the movement around an axis.

Here, in green, it distinguish orbital revolution as one body moving around another body, from (in red) the rotational motion when a body spin around on its axis.

This is exactly what I have been saying all along, but you and Union continued to dismiss what I have said about the distinction between "rotation" and "orbital motion".

Please go ahead, and read related to wiki links, like Wikipedia Orbital revolution.

 

[Gerald Kelleher]

Yes orbiting is rotating around an external point and not around its own axis

You are mistaken, intrinsic rotation like daily rotation of the Earth has a maximum Equatorial speed which diminishes across latitudes towards the poles. Orbital motion is where all points on the Earth's surface move through space and around the Sun at the same speed.

It is exceptionally important to recognize two distinct motions as being loose with the terms has caused great difficulties and a lot of confusion.

 

[FearGod]

You are mistaken, intrinsic rotation like daily rotation of the Earth has a maximum Equatorial speed which diminishes across latitudes towards the poles. Orbital motion is where all points on the Earth's surface move through space and around the Sun at the same speed.

It is exceptionally important to recognize two distinct motions as being loose with the terms has caused great difficulties and a lot of confusion.

I'll assume that i made the big mistake regarding using the words "rotating around" and knowing that English isn't my native language plus astronomy isn't my field then would you please explain why such words are still used in the scientific writings.

Few examples

Some 4.567 billion years ago, our solar system's planets spawned from an expansive disc of gas and dust rotating around the sun. Our solar system is not quite as special as once believed, new research suggests -- ScienceDaily

The old heliocentric model of our solar system,
planets rotating around the sun, is not only boring,
but also incorrect
Vortex Garbage | Good Math Bad Math

he accepted view was that the earth was the center of the universe and that the sun rotated around the earth
https://scholar.vt.edu/access/content/user/pedersjm/ePortfolio/mock trial case study.pdf

This is in contradiction with Kepler’s law that describes the rotation of planets around the Sun
Quantum Diaries

Spinnity can explain the initial force causing the planets rotating around the Sun
Hu, W. (2011). Spinning mass will induce frame-dragging force (spinnity) accompanying gravity. PHILICA.COM Article number 281.

 

[Gerald Kelleher]

I'll assume that i made the big mistake regarding using the words "rotating around" and knowing that English isn't my native language plus astronomy isn't my field then would you please explain why such words are still used in the scientific writings.

It is perfectly understandable as rotation and orbital motion operate separately and besides, English speakers themselves don't really make the distinction when they really should.

The Earth has two surface rotations to the central Sun rather than just one but as you can see, the same people who snicker at the cleric and his dumb view can't themselves handle daily rotation as it causes daylight to turn to darkness each 24 hours as they imagine that 366 1/4 rotations fit inside one orbital circuit -

"During one orbit around the Sun, Earth rotates about its own axis 366.26 times" Earth article

Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[FearGod]

It is perfectly understandable as rotation and orbital motion operate separately and besides, English speakers themselves don't really make the distinction when they really should.

I did the same as they did.

The Earth has two surface rotations to the central Sun rather than just one but as you can see, the same people who snicker at the cleric and his dumb view can't themselves handle daily rotation as it causes daylight to turn to darkness each 24 hours as they imagine that 366 1/4 rotations fit inside one orbital circuit -

"During one orbit around the Sun, Earth rotates about its own axis 366.26 times" Earth article

Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Who said that the earth doesn't rotate or spin ?

 

[gnostic]

Who said that the earth doesn't rotate or spin ?

The Saudi cleric (Sheikh Bandar al-Khaibari, from the Telegraph video) is the one who said so, which is the reason why Augustus started this thread in the 1st place.

 

[gnostic]

I'll assume that i made the big mistake regarding using the words "rotating around" and knowing that English isn't my native language plus astronomy isn't my field then would you please explain why such words are still used in the scientific writings.

Finally!

Look, FearGod, I like you, despite that we disagree on certain issues, but I am not trying to trick you or lie to you.

In the science and religion debate forums, like this topic, I am simply trying to make sure if you are going to debate on any topic, that you will use the correct terminology. If you learn from a mistake, then would you can avoid future misunderstanding.

Without around, then yes, but cars in accidents will rollover and not rotating.

Actually a car that rollover is essentially "rotating"; rollover is just a better word for it. A car that skid on slippery road, and spin out of control, the vehicle is also rotating, but rotating horizontally. Rollover just mean that the vehicle rotate vertically from the (horizontal) plane ("plane" as surface like ground, road, etc; I am not talking about plane as in "aeroplane".)

A lot of the engine parts, as well as the fan, axles and wheels, that "turn", are all rotating. The hands of minute and hour of (analog) clock or wristwatch, is turning, admittedly, painfully slow, but still rotating.

Any object that turn or spin is "rotating".

Orbiting require 2 separate or independent objects, in which one will move around another. The "path" an object (or objects) move, which is either circular or elliptical, is called "orbit". The objects need not be spherical in shape, like the Earth and Sun.

Orbit can be a noun or verb.

The Earth has its own orbit (noun) around the Sun, as do each other planet have its own orbit around the Sun.

The verse in the Qur'an that Union had used, use the word "orbit" not "rotate". The verse doesn't mention "rotate", but you and Union assume that it does, because you are trying to put modern context into an ancient passage.

 

[Shad]

The quran doesn't mention which rotates around which, so it is neither geocentric nor heliocentric according to the quran.

Does not need to. It never challenge existing models, no one developed the heliocentric model after the Quran was revealed nor in the centuries between the Quran and Copernicus. The "All" clause does not need to include earth as it could be the observation point of "All" other objects. Post hoc rationalization does not stand up to history.