Saved from what?

[Ronald]

Saved from the second death! Enter into eternal life. those who have done the will of God are chosen and may enter the city by it 's gates.
The lake of fire consumes every thing that is thrown into it.
In the New Earth there is the saved, all the saved, the "Elect/Chosen"are those who lived and reigned with the Annointed King for 1000 years, in the New Earth, they alone enter and exit the Holy City, the rest of the saved live in a Gan Eden.
That isn't at all shabby! So even to be least in the kingdom is to be desired over the second death!
So, friends you have three choices! Choose wisely. Amen?

 

[PureX]

Why do some think that humans need to be saved?
Saved from what?

I had to be saved from myself. And I couldn't do that by myself. I needed special help. I needed the help of people who had already been saved to show me how. Fortunately, when I finally came to the point where I couldn't couldn't go on as I was, those people were there. And when I reached out to them for help, they reached back.

Why should we be saved from someone or something God himself created?[/LIST]

I don't know. Perhaps God wanted me to experience needing other people's help. Perhaps God wanted me to experience what it's like to be broken, and to be humbled, and to surrender myself to others to be healed (an act of faith).

God said himself that he created evil, so is this all just a trick to get us to follow him?

I have no idea what God is thinking, and neither does anyone else. I personally choose to believe that my life, including even the experience of "evil", is a great gift. And I choose to cherish it.

Also why do some people believe that they can't do good without God helping them, ...

Because for some people that's true. Do you think you know better than they do what is possible for them to do without help?

... doesn't God help them who helps themselves?

God helps everyone. God also gives everyone their turn and time to suffer. What point is there in our asking these kinds of questions, when we know that we can't have the answers?

IF so then why does God say we are sheep like?

God doesn't say that, men do. Don't confuse what men write about God with God. Men are often fools who think they are God's equals.

 

[michel]

Yes, but a human should decide that. I was talking about the Biblical God

Forget the Biblical God for a minute; besides, even if he is as described, he has no "day to day" manipulation of what goes on here. I agree totally with Willamena's point

God is the un-person, therefore there is nothing to blame but ourselves.

Whether you believe in God or not (IMO) makes no difference here; we are the ones who mess things up; we are responsible for Katrina - it isn't because of any outside agency that weather patterns are changing; it is our (well more probably the generations befopre ours) Fault for what is happening now.

Being a theist (as I am) makes no difference whatsoever in this argument; because as far as I am concerned, God gave us the Earth to populate, to discover, and either ruin - or improve our surroundings, depending on how we use our abilities.

 

[joeboonda]

So, if i go on a rampage of theft, rape and murder that lasts for 30 years and costs 2000 people their lives, as long as i trust in Jesus i'll be saved? Awesome!

I did not say that, nor does the Bible. If you are saying they accept Christ before they do such a thing, a truly born-again Christian, though still prone to sin, would not do that and you know it. If you are saying they accept Christ after they do such a thing, their heart would be so hardened to any mention of the Gospel that they would almost never accept Christ. Having said that, God does love all sinners and no matter how bad a person has been, even if they did commit adultery, lie, and murder like David did, if they turn to Him for forgiveness, sincerely, He will forgive them, although they, like David, will suffer the consequences of their actions here, and loss of reward there.

When a person experiences such profound, undeserved mercy and forgiveness from the Lord, experiences His awesome love poured out on them, poor and wretched sinners as they are, that this God will forgive even me, believe me, they are changed, filled with indescribable gratitude to the God who loved them so much. If you ever meet a person who's life has been transformed by this indescribable love of God, perhaps you will understand. The scenario you mention is just pure horse-hockey to put it as politely as I can.

 

[Green Gaia]

Why do some think that humans need to be saved?

• Saved from what?

We need to be saved from destorying ourselves, our humanity, and our home (the Earth) because of our greed, ignorance, and arrogance...and only we can do that.

 

[porkchop]

Yes God create evil & he said I am all these things. He did create sin when he made man. He knew what was going to happen & he let it.

God did not say "i am all these things".

Isa 45v6: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45v7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I shall quote Dave Hunt from his book " In defence of the faith" to help answer your question as he can explain it alot better than i ever could.

" Let's examine this verse:" I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." How does God create darkness? Darkness is really nothing. It is not a "thing" that God created; it is simply the absince of light. No one would know he was in the dark if he had never seen light. Thus by creating light God exposes the absence of it as darkness."

 

[Kcnorwood]

God did not say "i am all these things".


Isa 45v7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.



Sorry your right but this verus proves my point he created it, why but blame yourselves when he created mans downfall?

 

[Halcyon]

I did not say that, nor does the Bible. If you are saying they accept Christ before they do such a thing, a truly born-again Christian, though still prone to sin, would not do that and you know it.

I know no such thing.
Just look at Fred Phelps and his goons, they believe wholeheartedly in Christ - yet they still preach hate and make people's lives hell. If Christians can act like his lot, it isn't too big a step for them to commit murders and rapes and still retain their born-again devotion to Christ and acceptance of his blood.

If you are saying they accept Christ after they do such a thing, their heart would be so hardened to any mention of the Gospel that they would almost never accept Christ.

That's pure speculation, just think of all the people who go through their lives not giving a damn about anyone and on their death beds convert to Christianity, accepting Christ as their saviour so they can have their sins washed away.

Having said that, God does love all sinners and no matter how bad a person has been, even if they did commit adultery, lie, and murder like David did, if they turn to Him for forgiveness, sincerely, He will forgive them, although they, like David, will suffer the consequences of their actions here, and loss of reward there.

What's this about forgiveness? You've repeatedly said that all we need to do to be saved is have a shower in the blood of Christ, that's not forgiveness, that's a get-out-of-jail-free card.
If God loved all sinners, there would be nothing for them to be saved from.

 

[Willamena]

Yes, but a human should decide that. I was talking about the Biblical God

As was I. I mean, that image of God is no different.

 

[xexon]

And how does this "salvation" benefit a person?

To know oneself is to know God.


x

 

[Willamena]

To know oneself is to know God.

So... knowledge is its own reward?

 

[UnTheist]

As was I. I mean, that image of God is no different.

You misunderstood me. I defenitely agree that we are the only ones responsible for our mistakes. I just don't believe a God that is omnipotent and creates imperfect humans and calls us sinners for his own mistakes could exist

 

[xexon]

So... knowledge is its own reward?

It is not knowledge. It is beyond that. It is beyond mind and all the things you have attached to yourself while in the world.

The "self" of which I speak is your original state. A naked soul, just as God made you.

Thats what salvation is. A return to what you were in the beginning.



x

 

[pladecalvo]

Isa 45v7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I shall quote Dave Hunt from his book " In defence of the faith" to help answer your question as he can explain it alot better than i ever could.

" Let's examine this verse:" I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." How does God create darkness? Darkness is really nothing. It is not a "thing" that God created; it is simply the absince of light. No one would know he was in the dark if he had never seen light. Thus by creating light God exposes the absence of it as darkness."

So, in "examining the verse", all you have done is explain that darkness is the abscence of light. What about your god creating evil?

I also can't see how your interpretation has explained the verse. The verse specifically says "I form the light and create darkness". You then go on to say that your god did not create darkness. Your god said he created it, you say he didn't. Who's word do we accept?

 

[Willamena]

It is not knowledge. It is beyond that. It is beyond mind and all the things you have attached to yourself while in the world.

The "self" of which I speak is your original state. A naked soul, just as God made you.

Thats what salvation is. A return to what you were in the beginning.

And... how does that benefit us?

 

[joeboonda]

I know no such thing.
Just look at Fred Phelps and his goons, they believe wholeheartedly in Christ - yet they still preach hate and make people's lives hell. If Christians can act like his lot, it isn't too big a step for them to commit murders and rapes and still retain their born-again devotion to Christ and acceptance of his blood.

All people within the realm of Christendom are NOT true Christians.

That's pure speculation, just think of all the people who go through their lives not giving a damn about anyone and on their death beds convert to Christianity, accepting Christ as their saviour so they can have their sins washed away.

Very few folks have 'death-bed' conversions, because they have hardened their heart all their life to the point that they will not accept Christ.

What's this about forgiveness? You've repeatedly said that all we need to do to be saved is have a shower in the blood of Christ, that's not forgiveness, that's a get-out-of-jail-free card.

The Bible CLEARLY teaches salvation is not earned by our good works, it is a free gift.

If God loved all sinners, there would be nothing for them to be saved from.

The Bible indeed says there is something to be saved from, eternal separation from anything good, pure, holy, lovely, from God, the 2nd death in Hell. If one does not accept Jesus' death as payment for their sins, they must pay for them themselves, this is what the Bible clearly teaches.

I am in no way being light on sin, sin has its consequences in this life, and in the next. A person who accepts Christ and becomes a missionary and goes to a foreign country to serve Christ, and eventually is killed because of it, will have a much greater reward than someone who accepts Christ and never really grows in grace or produces much 'fruit'.

 

[xexon]

And... how does that benefit us?

As an atheist, it wouldnt appear to.

But the path moves beneath your feet in the darkness anyway. You just can't see it.

You won't always be an atheist. You may fill out the remainder of your life as one, but future lives will hold other views for you.


x

 

[porkchop]

So, in "examining the verse", all you have done is explain that darkness is the abscence of light. What about your god creating evil?

I also can't see how your interpretation has explained the verse. The verse specifically says "I form the light and create darkness". You then go on to say that your god did not create darkness. Your god said he created it, you say he didn't. Who's word do we accept?

This is also in answer to Knorwoods question.

After looking at the verse it’s even more simple than you'd think. The formation of the verse is using opposite to portray the idea. Darkness is the opposite of light; is evil the opposite of peace? Not in the way your'e thinking.
Evil has several meanings in the Bible, one of which is troubles which makes a good opposite of peace, which is an act of God’s judgement if it comes from God not an act of immorality.

Here's an example:
Deut 31v17: Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day. Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
Deut 31v18: And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.

Also, what Dave Hunt is saying is right, darkness is the absence of light; by creating light God creates darkness as being where ever light isn't found. Moral evil is the absence of righteousness. By being righteous and setting a standard that people must meet God has created evil as being whatever falls short of that target.

I always accept Gods word.
It is your decision as to who's word you accept,pladecalvo.

 

[Willamena]

As an atheist, it wouldnt appear to.

But the path moves beneath your feet in the darkness anyway. You just can't see it.

You won't always be an atheist. You may fill out the remainder of your life as one, but future lives will hold other views for you.


x

I am not an atheist.

 

[Katzpur]

Saved is, in my opinion, somewhat of a misnomer. We're not getting saved so much as we're earning a reward. If we do well, we'll get a bigger reward. As ye sow, so shall ye reap, and all that.

Interesting. That's pretty close to my own point of view. Jesus said He would reward all men according to their works. I do believe, though -- and I'm guessing you don't -- that Jesus' Atonement saved us from the permanance of death and provided us with the opportunity for eternal progression.