Saw This on a Facebook Page

[suncowiam]

This probably is a joke but this emphasizes how some religious folks condemn others very easily. They already assume they know God's final decision on judgement day. I tend to hear this rhetoric all the time debating gay and atheist topics.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I like George Burns read all his books have his TV show on CD and seen all his movies. Yet I understand your likes and do not find it disturbing hopefully I'm not disturbing to you.

No. I like dark comedies so it's not unusual for someone to be disturbed by my tastes. I also like South Park, which it's not unusual for someone to question my sanity by my tastes.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well, I do appreciate what you are saying. We all do rather get along in this world, but that is a result of keeping our mouths shut.

You ever known some Germans or been to Germany? They tend to be very honest with each other and to others, to the point many Americans think they are rude. But they get along just fine even though they will tell someone they look fat if they do look fat.

 

[suncowiam]

It still says alot about those mean atheist teachers who crush the dreams of Christians, when the only intolerant one I have had in my own experience had similar concerns about how society is out to get her.

What if it is a true fact that whales cannot swallow people whole? Some kid can quote the bible and declare the opposite is true simply based on the bible?

Maybe the teacher is wrong, maybe the teacher is right. I don't know if a whale can or cannot swallow a human whole but you don't go solving a problem based on hearsay.

Who actually cares if a whale can swallow a human whole, but other ideals that the bible insinuates on truly affects the happiness and dignitity of other peoples' lives.

 

[Sonofason]

What if it is a true fact that whales cannot swallow people whole? Some kid can quote the bible and declare the opposite is true simply based on the bible?

Maybe the teacher is wrong, maybe the teacher is right. I don't know if a whale can or cannot swallow a human whole but you don't go solving a problem based on hearsay.

Who actually cares if a whale can swallow a human whole, but other ideals that the bible insinuates on truly affects the happiness and dignitity of other peoples' lives.

Do you believe the child should not be permitted to declare his beliefs?

And you're right, there are many issues that the Bible deals with that society ignores, and that is affecting my happiness. Thanks to you, no more.

 

[suncowiam]

Do you believe the child should not be permitted to declare his beliefs?

And you're right, there are many issues that the Bible deals with that society ignores, and that is affecting my happiness. Thanks to you, no more.

I think the child or anyone for the matter can state a fact if it truly is fact. Is that fair enough to you? I think that's fair to me. Maybe a marine biologist is better suited to declare if a whale can truly engulf a human whole? You know, like someone that spent their education and majority of their life studying marine life can actually unequivocally declare such a statement? Maybe it's not best for the teacher or the child to conjecture based on position of power or based on a story that can or cannot be proven to be true? Again, what is the more logical or rational approach to solving this particular problem? Could that same approach be taken to solve other real world issues?

If you are going to force feed me "facts" based on hearsay, well then, I have a major issue with that. But if you want to offer your opinion then that's a different matter which leaves room for mistakes and correction. And most defintely not a declaration of "you are going to hell."

Let's not beat around the bush, what exactly about my proposition is unfair to you or the child?

 

[Sonofason]

I think the child or anyone for the matter can state a fact if it truly is fact. Is that fair enough to you? I think that's fair to me. Maybe a marine biologist is better suited to declare if a whale can truly engulf a human whole? You know, like someone that spent their education and majority of their life studying marine life can actually unequivocally declare such a statement? Maybe it's not best for the teacher or the child to conjecture based on position of power or based on a story that can or cannot be proven to be true? Again, what is the more logical or rational approach to solving this particular problem? Could that same approach be taken to solve other real world issues?

If you are going to force feed me "facts" based on hearsay, well then, I have a major issue with that. But if you want to offer your opinion then that's a different matter which leaves room for mistakes and correction. And most defintely not a declaration of "you are going to hell."

Let's not beat around the bush, what exactly about my proposition is unfair to you or the child?

I and the child shall remain free to state as a matter of fact anything we choose to state as a matter of fact, and you are certainly free to challenge any statement we make. And in turn, we are free to answer or not answer as we choose, and you are free to walk away if we should choose to not answer.

 

[Iti oj]

Well, it's apparent you're going to avoid answering. After all, I've just shown you that your either/or scenario is illogical and false. I've just shown you that you don't know what you think you know. I can't blame you for not responding. What sort of response could you possibly muster? As it is, Nada.

what am i not responding to?

 

[Iti oj]

Or hell isn't what you think it is.

Or you are wrong in your assumptions about what is good, and what is not.

Or you don't understand God as you should.

Or...

is this the post you meant? Do you believe hell is just the grave. Good christian go to heaven, an atheist like me just die?

 

[Sonofason]

what am i not responding to?

Let me refresh you memory, you just said,

"There either isn't hell and God is good. Or there is hell and worship an evil God to avoid hell."

I have provided you a few more options, and of course I expected you to acknowledge those options. Here are the three other possible options I gave that you really should consider before making the presumptive either/or statement that you so hastily made.

I had said,
Or hell isn't what you think it is.

Or you are wrong in your assumptions about what is good, and what is not.

Or you don't understand God as you should.

Or...

I gather there are likely a few more possibilities as well. It's certainly not as cut and dry as you'd like to make it seem.

And now,
"I've just shown you that your either/or scenario is illogical and false. I've just shown you that you may not know what you think you know."

But no worries, no need to back peddle now. I get where you're coming from.

 

[Sonofason]

is this the post you meant? Do you believe hell is just the grave. Good christian go to heaven, an atheist like me just die?

Well, for starters, there is no strong indication that the use of the word Sheol in the Old Testament had any other meaning with regard to the context in which it was used to be referring to anything but the grave. For some, death is eternal.

I don't want to sound like I know everything. I could be wrong, and Sheol could be a place of torment. What do I know?

 

[Sonofason]

But I would like for someone to tell me what it is like being dead? What happens to a soul, if there is a soul, when the body is dead. What is the death of a soul. Can a soul die? I don't know these answers. What is eternal separation from God? Is that the death of a soul?

 

[Iti oj]

Well, for starters, there is no strong indication that the use of the word Sheol in the Old Testament had any other meaning with regard to the context in which it was used to be referring to anything but the grave. For some, death is eternal.

I don't want to sound like I know everything. I could be wrong, and Sheol could be a place of torment. What do I know?

If Sheol just death, then i suppose that wouldn't make God evil, though if you take certain sections of the old testament as true, he very well might be anyways. If the "classic" understanding if hell is correct though, then God is undeniably evil.

anyways, i never got the impression you were off the Sheol camp. Its a pleasant surprise.

 

[Iti oj]

But I would like for someone to tell me what it is like being dead? What happens to a soul, if there is a soul, when the body is dead. What is the death of a soul. Can a soul die? I don't know these answers. What is eternal separation from God? Is that the death of a soul?

idk, but if god giveth, god can taketh?

 

[Sonofason]

If Sheol just death, then i suppose that wouldn't make God evil, though if you take certain sections of the old testament as true, he very well might be anyways. If the "classic" understanding if hell is correct though, then God is undeniably evil.

anyways, i never got the impression you were off the Sheol camp. Its a pleasant surprise.

I can see why one could make this mistake. I may often make statements that such and such is destined for hell. And so of course, unless you had gotten a glimpse of my mind, you wouldn't really know what I would be thinking. You know, another word that has been translated to the word hell is Gehenna. And you may very well know that Gehenna was the city dump outside the city of Jerusalem. That fire burned day and night. And I might say that such and such is destined for the garbage dump. Certainly, there are human beings that deserve to be thrown away. And please don't jump to the conclusion that deserving to be thrown away is equal to being thrown away. It isn't; compassion, mercy, and forgiveness do exist.

I do not completely understand the concept of soul and spirit. I mean, I get what those words are tying to indicate, but I have no idea, not of my own understanding, how it plays out. Assuming for a moment, that God does exist, and that we humans have souls, where does a soul go when the body dies? I keep hearing that souls are eternal. Is that true? If God exists, I would tend to believe that souls exist. Christian doctrine suggests that we have souls.

Okay, so now we have a conflict. We have people who deserve being tossed in the trash, and we have people that deserve to not exist. The trash pile is burning day and night, because it is in Jerusalem, and they've got a lot of trash I guess. But our souls are eternal. Does this mean that our souls will be burning day and night in the trash dump?

I don't think so. It could be, but I do believe that the word Gehenna is a metaphor for a place that bad people deserve to go, not necessarily the actual place where they go. But then a metaphor is like the real thing, so I wouldn't say that being "in hell" is so great.

I certainly would not want to be a soul with a body burning anywhere forever. That is horrible, and that is not, in my opinion, anything remotely a part of God's plan. But what of the soul. What does fire do to a soul?

What does fire do to certain metals? It purifies them.

Now being a soul that is being purified doesn't sound so bad. But then, I don't know. I don't recall having my soul purified at any point in my existence, and I don't know if I want to experience that.

I guess my point. God is perfect. And God is love. God wants to dwell with us because He loves us, and He can only do that if we ourselves are perfect. If not we corrupt God, and that seems to me an impossibility. Neither would I want a corruptible God in my life. If we are going to spend an eternity with God, we are going to have to be willing to be perfected. And I believe that process begins now.

God has given us free will. We can accept God's conditions, or reject them. When we reject His conditions, we reject Him, and that is no sign of love. The first commandment of Jesus is that we love God. If we do not love God we will not spend an eternity with God. That means we will spend eternity without God. God is good. Without God there is nothing that is good. If you are good in any way, it is because the goodness of God is inherently a part of who we are.

It is my belief that when a person dies without God, they are indeed left without God and all of the goodness he once had that had its roots in God. That person will be utterly and completely deprived of everything that is from God, perhaps alone, or with the rest of the bunch that are deprived of God and His love and goodness. But all of them will know that God is. And that will torment them for the rest of their lives.

Do you like Pascal's wager? I do.

I hope for every nonbeliever's sake that souls do not exist. But maybe they do.

But there is something called the second death. Maybe that is the saving grace for all non-believers. Perhaps it is the death of the soul, and there will be no more tears.

 

[Sonofason]

idk, but if god giveth, god can taketh?

Look at the power of that one little two letter word, "if".

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Look at the power of that one little two letter word, "if".

It can also be a very weak word refering to an event that is highly improbably and would be very insignificant, even if it did happen. Such as, even "if" I am a few minutes late to work today, my boss won't be there to know. And even "if" she found out, she probably wouldn't say anything.

 

[suncowiam]

I and the child shall remain free to state as a matter of fact anything we choose to state as a matter of fact, and you are certainly free to challenge any statement we make. And in turn, we are free to answer or not answer as we choose, and you are free to walk away if we should choose to not answer.

As I mentioned previously, it is perfectly fine to declare your beliefs as opinions. But if you declare them as facts then I expect more than hearsay to prove the argument.

Fair enough? Would you agree with that? Yes? No?

Why? Why not?

 

[Sonofason]

It can also be a very weak word refering to an event that is highly improbably and would be very insignificant, even if it did happen. Such as, even "if" I am a few minutes late to work today, my boss won't be there to know. And even "if" she found out, she probably wouldn't say anything.

You're right, I guess.
So in your first example you encourage deceit. That seems like a major issue to me.

In your second example, it seems you still have some kind of deceit on your mind?

Thus, when you said, "idk, but if god giveth, god can taketh?" you must also have implied deceit. Am I correct?

 

[Iti oj]

You're right, I guess.
So in your first example you encourage deceit. That seems like a major issue to me.

In your second example, it seems you still have some kind of deceit on your mind?

Thus, when you said, "idk, but if god giveth, god can taketh?" you must also have implied deceit. Am I correct?

I said that, not shadow, and no, deceit was not my aim. You asked a theological question.To have a menafull reply to a hypothetical question i had to presume something. I don't believe in God, but the question posed as based upon the idea God did exist. ERGO if god giveth, two presumptions, that god exists and god giveth. I accept neither claims so i used the word if.