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Science and religion are not necessarily in conflict.

Gambit

Well-Known Member
Science and religion are not necessarily in conflict providing that each stays within its proper domain. Science is concerned with secondary causes (i.e. physical causes). Religion is concerned with the primary cause (i.e. God). Science is concerned with efficient causality. Religion is concerned with final causality.


"Religion without science is blind. Science without religion is lame” - Albert Einstein
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
Science and religion are not necessarily in conflict providing that each stays within its proper domain. Science is concerned with secondary causes (i.e. physical causes). Religion is concerned with the primary cause (i.e. God). Science is concerned with efficient causality. Religion is concerned with final causality.
Of course they're not. It's only foolish theists making contentious objections to some of the findings of science.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
That... is not quite how I would frame things, but the general observation that the sciences and various religions do not necessarily conflict is overwhelmingly self-evident in its truth.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Of course they're not. It's only foolish theists making contentious objections to some of the findings of science.
And some pretentious scientists dismissing all things that are not of the physical domain.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
Science and religion are not necessarily in conflict providing that each stays within its proper domain. Science is concerned with secondary causes (i.e. physical causes). Religion is concerned with the primary cause (i.e. God). Science is concerned with efficient causality. Religion is concerned with final causality.
I disagree. Science, as a fundamental principle, has no such limitation. Anything that exists (in away, anything that can b conceived) can fall within the scope of scientific process as long as whoever (or whatever) is using it has the ability to observe the subject.

Religions are just defined sets of beliefs and practices. Some of those beliefs relate to "primary causes" like gods but none of those are (can be) outside the scope of science, though many are conveniently outside the scope of human beings to study them, at least at the time they're conceived of.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
And some pretentious scientists dismissing all things that are not of the physical domain.
Only as they are asserted to impact the "physical domain." Scientists couldn't care less what religion asserts, as long as they don't try asserting it in public school science classes.
 
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Gambit

Well-Known Member
I disagree. Science, as a fundamental principle, has no such limitation. Anything that exists (in away, anything that can b conceived) can fall within the scope of scientific process as long as whoever (or whatever) is using it has the ability to observe the subject.

Religions are just defined sets of beliefs and practices. Some of those beliefs relate to "primary causes" like gods but none of those are (can be) outside the scope of science, though many are conveniently outside the scope of human beings to study them, at least at the time they're conceived of.

The primary cause transcends both space and time. As such, it is beyond the purview of the physical sciences. Also, consciousness is inherently subjective, not objective. So, it is also beyond the purview of the physical sciences.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Science couldn't care less what religion asserts, as long as they don't try asserting it in public school science classes.
Theoretically, yes. In practice, I was talking about scientists like Dawkins who stand on the science soap box.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Science and religion are not necessarily in conflict
True.

Science is concerned with secondary causes (i.e. physical causes). Religion is concerned with the primary cause (i.e. God). Science is concerned with efficient causality. Religion is concerned with final causality.

Not true in a variety of ways. First, it doesn't exhaust even a simple list of classes of causality:
"-Material cause. Material cause stems from the presence of some physical substance that is needed for a particular outcome. Aristotle suggested that bronze is an essential factor in the making of a bronze statue, but the concept is more general. Obesity in the United States, for example, is materially caused by the overproduction of corn (maize), just as Russian alcoholism is materially caused by the abundance of vodka.

Formal cause. The material necessary for some particular outcome must be available in the appropriate form. The blueprints of a house are necessary for its construction, the DNA sequence of a particular gene is required for synthesis of the corresponding protein, and a pianist needs the score to play a concerto.

Efficient cause. For something to happen, according to Aristotle, there must be an “agent that produces the effect and starts the material on its way.” Thus, a golf ball moves through the air in a certain trajectory because it was struck at a particular instant of time by the head of a club. Similarly, a radio wave is emitted into the ether in response to the current that is forced to flow through an antenna. Following Galileo, this is the standard sense in which physical scientists use the term causality

-Final cause. Events may come about because they are desired by some intentional organism. Thus a house is built – involving the assembly of materials, reading of plans, sawing of wood, and pounding of nails – because someone wishes to have shelter from the elements. Such purposive answers to the question “why?” are problematic in the biological sciences, and they emerge as central issues at upper levels of the cognitive hierarchy."
Scott, A. (2006). Physicalism, Chaos, and Reductionism. In J. Tuszynski (Ed.) The Emerging Physics of Consciousness. Springer.

Second, as can be seen by the same example, the sciences most definitely involve inquiry & investigation of final causes.
Third, not all religions even include gods, let alone god as a primary cause.
Fourth, for those that do, this is a valid area of inquiry for theology, philosophy, even metaphysics, but it is not a given by any stretch of the imagination. Therefore one might say that some religious individuals argue that god is the primary cause, not that god is the primary cause. Scientists do look into questions like the nature of the universe (including its origins), but even when this becomes more metaphysics than physics this is but one example of a final cause.
Fifth, not only does this presume that god exists but also that god intended the universe to be as it is (as designer), but it is not necessarily true that the universe has a final cause.

There are other objections but that should suffice for now.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
The primary cause transcends both space and time. As such, it is beyond the purview of the physical sciences. Also, consciousness is inherently subjective, not objective. So, it is also beyond the purview of the physical sciences.

"Also, consciousness is inherently subjective, not objective"

Totally wrong and we understand a lot about consciousness, even more now then ever. Your not up to date on neuroscience for sure.

"The primary cause transcends both space and time. As such, it is beyond the purview of the physical sciences"

Perhaps not.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
Whats in even more in conflict to me for the most part are the religions themselves and basically NO religious tolerance.

The conflict with science and religion hasn't to my knowledge cause more wars then religions fighting amongs themselves..
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
You can give me a list of things YOU THINK are supernatural.


Paranormal is not quite the same as supernatural. But can be.
 
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