ak.yonathan
Active Member
Right you are, because the phrase married bachelor has no meaning, unless of course God can violate the rules of logic.
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science and religion
- Thread starter zippo9211989
- Start date
gnostic
The Lost One
So you are saying that your "god" is a god of irrationality, stupidity or insanity?
Oh, yeah, that make your god much more appealing or worship-worthy.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Really?
Someone had to be First.
At the point of singularity.....choose.....
Spirit first?.....or substance.
There is nothing else to choose from......the answer is self supportive.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
Why does "spirit" have to necessarily be God? That's what I'm asking. It seems like you are taking a vague concept (spirit), and arriving at God without any solid explanation as to why. Can you define how you are using the term God specifically for me?
ak.yonathan
Active Member
No, that's not what I'm saying. Why is it that you equate incomprehensibility with stupidity or even insanity? Is it stupid to believe in something that is incomprehensible? Insanity is a man-made concept and as such it might be flawed. However I'm not trying to convince anyone. If you think that God isn't worthy of worship than feel free not to.So you are saying that your "god" is a god of irrationality, stupidity or insanity?
Oh, yeah, that make your god much more appealing or worship-worthy.
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gnostic
The Lost One
You state that God can defy "rules of logic".
Defying logic is "irrationality".
While incomprehensible has a different meaning.
Of course it has meaning. To talk about jhvjhv would be meaningless, pending a definition of jhvjhv. For instance, it is absolutely meaningful to say that the set of all married bachelors is empty.
And there is nothing God can do to fill it up.
Because of this, married bachelors have more meaning than God, pending a clear definition of God.
Ciao
- viole
ak.yonathan
Active Member
Actually, I don't think that it is definitions that determine whether or not something has meaning. Even if there is no clear definition of God (which I disagree with) it doesn't mean in the slightest that the term God has no meaning. Also, just for additional information, I think that God is an omnipotent being.
gnostic
The Lost One
"Man-made"?
Lot of things are "man-made":
Houses, roads, computers, phones, guns, medicine, music, literature, painting, philosophy, logic, mathematics, science, and the list can go on endlessly.
Guess' what, ak.yonathan?
Religions are all man-made. All the scriptures and teachings are man-made, including the Torah, gospels, Qur'an, the Book of the Dead, etc.
All the god's and spirits (including angels, demons and jinns) are man's inventions, based on their superstitions, which are themselves derived on their imagination, delusions and primitive fears.
The ideas of god being omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient are also based on man's superstitious belief.
None of these deities and religions have any basis on reality.
The Abrahamic religions are not in any way superior to other religions of deities. And they are all based on man's superstitions.
ak.yonathan
Active Member
What I mean is that that concept was not made by infallible beings and so might be wrong. You can't just make assumptions like all religions are man-made without providing any basis as to why people should believe it. How can you tell what it was? Isn't there a possibility that they're not? What makes you so sure?
gnostic
The Lost One
The very idea of "infallible" beings, like God for example, is also "man-made concept".
Sorry, but the only person making assumptions here is you, assumptions that you can't back up.
You are the who think a God is infallible and omnipotent, a being that we really don't know exist beyond your imagination and personal belief, so you should be the one who should prove what you say it is true.
The only way you back your own assumptions about god's attributes is to actually provide evidences that this invisible deity exist in reality. In "reality" as in more than just your faith in what scriptures say (or don't say).
As to "religion" being man-made. Of course it is.
There are no religion existing prior to the Neolithic period. And there is certainly no such thing as religion before man, like in the periods of the dinosaurs. The whole existence of all religions are dependent on man's superstition and wishful thinking.
Sadly, people are still superstitious today.
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ak.yonathan
Active Member
It could be just a coincidence that the revealing of religions happened after humans appeared. It's not impossible. It certainly doesn't mean that religion is the product of human intuition and thinking.
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Well, define for me omnipotence.
Could He lose His omnipotence? if He wanted?
Ciao
- viole
Pocongsetengahsalmon
Socialist, Nationalist, Religious Muslim
Assalamualaikum...
Peace upon everyone
I am intrigued by this topic, religion and science. As a muslim , Al Quran has a good correlation with science. For instance, The infamous Big Bang Theory.
The Christian Bible says that in the beginning God said"Let there be light"Genesis 1:3. However this turned out to be false. The universe was opaque to visible light (non-transparent) and photons couldn't travel at all. After the Big Bang the universe was primarily Hydrogen, Helium and a tiny bit of Lithium. However when a gas is too hot it becomes ionized (loses the electrons) and becomes opaque (like today's smoke). In the beginning the universe was opaque to visible light (non-transparent). After 380,000 years the universe cooled enough and it became transparent to visible light. For other wavelengths it was opaque for a billion years. So "Let there be light" turned out to be false. However the Quran correctly said that at the beginning it was SMOKE, that is, a hot non-transparent gas:
[Quran 41.11] Then He directed himself to the Heaven when it wasSMOKE, and then said to it and to Earth: "Come willingly or by force" they said "We do come willingly"
How could an illiterate man who lived 1400 years ago have known that it was just smoke after the Big Bang?
The universe was created in a Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago, is still expanding today, and billions of years from now it might recollapse by its own gravity with a Big Crunch (or continue expanding forever, Big Chill). Moslems say that this is what Allah says. The Quran says that on the first day of creation, God made the heavens and the Earth meshed together, tight and compact (Big Bang), continues to expand it into the universe we know today and at the last day God will recompress it into its original state (Big Crunch). About the first day (Big Bang), Allah says:
[Quran 21.30] Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the Earth were meshed together then We ripped them apart? And then We made of water everything living? Would they still not believe?
In the Quran the Heavens expanded from a single point.
Cosmologists just confirmed the existence of "Dark Energy", a mysterious repulsive force that acts in opposite to gravity. As the distance increases, the attractive gravitational force decreases but this mysterious repulsive force increases. This repulsive force is pushing galaxies apart; the greater the distance the greater the repulsion. Scientists today do not know what this "Dark Energy" is, but they know that it is causing the entire universe to expand at an increasing rate.
[Quran 51.47] And the heaven, We built it with craftsmanship and We are still expanding.
The Quran told us about this expansion 1400 years before it was discovered.
There are three possibilities to how the universe could end: Big Crunch (Quran), Big Chill and the Big Rip. NASA recently ruled out the third scenario (No Big Rip; see also:Universe Today). This leaves the universe with only two possible endings: Big Chill or Big Crunch, depending on what this Dark Energy turns out to be. Learn more:Expansion of Universe in Quran. In the Quran God promises to make the Big Crunch:
[Quran 21.104] On the day when We will fold the heaven, like the folder compacts the books, and as We originated the first creation We shall return it; a promise (binding on Us); surely We will deliver.
Here God promises to make this Big Crunch however not by gravity but rather by folding the Heavens like a book, that is, by the same mechanism He controls wormholes. This means that this Big Crunch can begin and end in a fraction of a second!
Also after this Big Crunch is over, God promises to recreate those heavens and Earth once more before Judgment Day:
[Quran 14.48] On the day when Earth will be swapped by another Earth and so will be the heavens; and all (creatures) will resurrect before the One Dominant God.[Quran 36.81] Is He not, who created the heavens and the Earth, capable of creating others like them? Yes, indeed! He is the All-Knowing Creator. His command, if He wanted a thing, is that He only says to it, "BE" and it becomes! So glorified is He in whose hands is the dominion of all things, and to Him you shall be returned.
Cheers!
Peace upon everyone
I am intrigued by this topic, religion and science. As a muslim , Al Quran has a good correlation with science. For instance, The infamous Big Bang Theory.
The Christian Bible says that in the beginning God said"Let there be light"Genesis 1:3. However this turned out to be false. The universe was opaque to visible light (non-transparent) and photons couldn't travel at all. After the Big Bang the universe was primarily Hydrogen, Helium and a tiny bit of Lithium. However when a gas is too hot it becomes ionized (loses the electrons) and becomes opaque (like today's smoke). In the beginning the universe was opaque to visible light (non-transparent). After 380,000 years the universe cooled enough and it became transparent to visible light. For other wavelengths it was opaque for a billion years. So "Let there be light" turned out to be false. However the Quran correctly said that at the beginning it was SMOKE, that is, a hot non-transparent gas:
[Quran 41.11] Then He directed himself to the Heaven when it wasSMOKE, and then said to it and to Earth: "Come willingly or by force" they said "We do come willingly"
How could an illiterate man who lived 1400 years ago have known that it was just smoke after the Big Bang?
The universe was created in a Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago, is still expanding today, and billions of years from now it might recollapse by its own gravity with a Big Crunch (or continue expanding forever, Big Chill). Moslems say that this is what Allah says. The Quran says that on the first day of creation, God made the heavens and the Earth meshed together, tight and compact (Big Bang), continues to expand it into the universe we know today and at the last day God will recompress it into its original state (Big Crunch). About the first day (Big Bang), Allah says:
[Quran 21.30] Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the Earth were meshed together then We ripped them apart? And then We made of water everything living? Would they still not believe?
In the Quran the Heavens expanded from a single point.
Cosmologists just confirmed the existence of "Dark Energy", a mysterious repulsive force that acts in opposite to gravity. As the distance increases, the attractive gravitational force decreases but this mysterious repulsive force increases. This repulsive force is pushing galaxies apart; the greater the distance the greater the repulsion. Scientists today do not know what this "Dark Energy" is, but they know that it is causing the entire universe to expand at an increasing rate.
[Quran 51.47] And the heaven, We built it with craftsmanship and We are still expanding.
The Quran told us about this expansion 1400 years before it was discovered.
There are three possibilities to how the universe could end: Big Crunch (Quran), Big Chill and the Big Rip. NASA recently ruled out the third scenario (No Big Rip; see also:Universe Today). This leaves the universe with only two possible endings: Big Chill or Big Crunch, depending on what this Dark Energy turns out to be. Learn more:Expansion of Universe in Quran. In the Quran God promises to make the Big Crunch:
[Quran 21.104] On the day when We will fold the heaven, like the folder compacts the books, and as We originated the first creation We shall return it; a promise (binding on Us); surely We will deliver.
Here God promises to make this Big Crunch however not by gravity but rather by folding the Heavens like a book, that is, by the same mechanism He controls wormholes. This means that this Big Crunch can begin and end in a fraction of a second!
Also after this Big Crunch is over, God promises to recreate those heavens and Earth once more before Judgment Day:
[Quran 14.48] On the day when Earth will be swapped by another Earth and so will be the heavens; and all (creatures) will resurrect before the One Dominant God.[Quran 36.81] Is He not, who created the heavens and the Earth, capable of creating others like them? Yes, indeed! He is the All-Knowing Creator. His command, if He wanted a thing, is that He only says to it, "BE" and it becomes! So glorified is He in whose hands is the dominion of all things, and to Him you shall be returned.
Cheers!
gnostic
The Lost One
It isn't a coincidence.
All evidences to the earliest religions come after man have been around 200,000 years (that man as in the earliest Homo sapiens).
The earliest recognisable religion have only been around at least 7000 years. The earliest Judaism have only been around less than 3000 years (about the 9th century BCE, while Egyptian and pre-Sumerian religions have both around 5500 years.
The earliest temples to the sky goddess Inanna were built about 3400 BCE, in the pre-Sumerian city of Uruk, which the bible Genesis 10 called Erech. The sky God An also predates Sumerian civilisation, with temples build around the same time of Inanna's. And yet, according to Genesis 10, Nimrod had supposedly founded this city Erech or Uruk AFTER THE FLOOD, but archaeologically Uruk was found in 5000 BCE (7000 BCE). Archaeological evidences prove that Genesis is not inaccurate, it is downright wrong.
Genesis 10 also say that Egypt wasn't around until after the flood, and yet Egyptian culture predates the 1st dynasty, known as predynastic period 4th millennium BCE.
Genesis is never history book, and it is inaccurate to boot. And there are no archaeological existence of Adam, Noah, Abraham and Jacob or anyone else in Genesis, other than those written in this book.
Science deal with evidences as do archaeology.
You say that you do accept science, but can you accept that Genesis are merely made-up stories, with no historical basis? Or will you allow the bible dictate what you believe in to be true, despite the real evidences stacked against it?
Pocongsetengahsalmon
Socialist, Nationalist, Religious Muslim
PS: Quran cannot be possibly man made because Prophet Muhammad is illiterate
Simple. When two illeterate people write complementary things, one is bound to be right.
Space is expanding. Not the Universe. The Universe is spacetime and it is not expanding, by definition. It did not even "start".
The visible Universe "expanded" from one point. We have no clue about things outside or visible horizon. If we were right,then the Universe would be finite (you cannot become infinite if you start finite). Alas, we do not know if it is finite or not.
Ergo, it is unlike that it will crunch itself.
I wonder why He did that.
Wormholes? Is God controlling things? I ask because you need an arrow of time to make sense of the word "control".
And you believe that. Right?
Ciao
- viole
ak.yonathan
Active Member
Well if the evidence points to it than I guess I have to accept it. Okay, I accept that the Bible is false.
ak.yonathan
Active Member
Do you think that I know more about God than you do?
Pocongsetengahsalmon
Socialist, Nationalist, Religious Muslim
1. Prophet Muhammad cannot write as well
2.The science of modern cosmology, observational and theoretical, clearly indicates that, at one point in time, the whole universe was nothing but a cloud of 'smoke' (i.e. an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition). This is one of the undisputed principles of standard modern cosmology. Scientists now can observe new stars forming out of the remnants of that 'smoke'. The illuminating stars we see at night were, just as was the whole universe, in that 'smoke' material. God said in the Quran:
Then He turned to the heavens when it was smoke...
[Noble Quran 41:11]
Because the earth and the heavens above (the sun, moon, stars, planets, galaxies, etc.) have been formed from this same 'smoke' we conclude that the earth and the heavens were one connected entity. Then out of this homogeneous 'smoke', they formed and separated from each other. God said in the Quran:
Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?..
[Noble Quran 21:30]
Professor Alfred Kroner is one of the world's well-known geologists. He is a Professor of the Department of Geosciences, University of Mainz, Mainz, Germany. He said, "Thinking where Muhammad came from .. I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advance technological methods that this is the case." (From 'This is the Truth' [video]). Also he said, "Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics fourteen hundred years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind, for instance, that the earth and the heavens had the same origin."
The science of modern cosmology, observational and theoretical, clearly indicates that, at one point in time, the whole universe was nothing but a cloud of 'smoke' (i.e. an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition). This is one of the undisputed principles of standard modern cosmology. Scientists now can observe new stars forming out of the remnants of that 'smoke'. The illuminating stars we see at night were, just as was the whole universe, in that 'smoke' material. God said in the Quran:
Then He turned to the heavens when it was smoke...
[Noble Quran 41:11]
Because the earth and the heavens above (the sun, moon, stars, planets, galaxies, etc.) have been formed from this same 'smoke' we conclude that the earth and the heavens were one connected entity. Then out of this homogeneous 'smoke', they formed and separated from each other. God said in the Quran:
Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?..
[Noble Quran 21:30]
Professor Alfred Kroner is one of the world's well-known geologists. He is a Professor of the Department of Geosciences, University of Mainz, Mainz, Germany. He said, "Thinking where Muhammad came from .. I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advance technological methods that this is the case." (From 'This is the Truth' [video]). Also he said, "Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics fourteen hundred years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind, for instance, that the earth and the heavens had the same origin."