Science and Technology are the solution

[I Am Hugh]

Wrong. Human nature is the "built-in" stuff. That which is created by our genes and our environment, not our desires. Our desires are the result of our nature, not the other way around.

Yes, but our desires change according to the environment. So, then, why would people desire to control others or be controlled by others in my very simple proposed scenario? The question is how would they do that?

Really my scenario has an alternative which eventually would create a new environment. Without money. If successful it would simply replace it in that it would no longer be necessary.

 

[McBell]

I believe Jehovah God is the solution to all of mankind's problems. But, temporarily, until that comes about, science and technology can solve most of mankind's problems. The first step is to remove all forms of money. Convince me I'm wrong.

What exactly do you mean by "currency"?

For as long as you have a system based on values, you will have some sort of 'tit for tat'.
Be it money, currency, bartering....

 

[I Am Hugh]

What exactly do you mean by "currency"?

For as long as you have a system based on values, you will have some sort of 'tit for tat'.
Be it money, currency, bartering....

Yes, I understand that, but what I'm suggesting - simply for consideration hypothetically - no such system. Making, in fact, the system obsolete. Something like this; a global enterprise business with more capital than most nations, owning more land and mineral rights than any other. They began working with robotics in the 1930s, and quietly produced robots and androids, using a form of energy which is independently implemented in each device. No batteries or power grid needed. A large army of these robots and androids were manufactured and stored in secret underground warehouses all over the globe.

They could do pretty much anything people could do, but much more efficiently. Yes! Better, faster, stronger. They began working, mostly underground, building a maglev train system and utility network which requires little power, and again, everything is powered with a secret source that doesn't require fossil fuels, wind, solar etc. They also develop and use building material that is extremely light, durable, easy to use and nearly indestructible. Replacing wood, metal, plastic, glass, etc.

While the utility network (for travel, shipping, communication) is being put into place the global corporation forms a large team of scientists, with no need for public funding, not profit driven, to figure stuff out. How to best and most efficiently utilize agriculture, manufacturing, service, environment, etc.

In the poorest countries they begin building city hubs connected to the aforementioned network. Everything anyone wants is provided free, produced by robots. Very few laws simply protect individual (rather than group) rights. Life, liberty, property. Very little crime. No politics. Issues are voted on, not people. No representation, government.

 

[wellwisher]

I believe Jehovah God is the solution to all of mankind's problems. But, temporarily, until that comes about, science and technology can solve most of mankind's problems. The first step is to remove all forms of money. Convince me I'm wrong.

If you look at Hollywood, their vision of our technological future, sees technology improving, but wars getting larger and more destructive. We learn to build Battle Stars which lead to Apocalyptic visions. Technology makes the outer world better, but the inner world of human nature does not keep pace, but keeps repeating the same mistakes but with better clothes and tech, until we are all peasants living with advanced weapon for defense.

As far as money, money is only a means for exchange. A barter economy would not allow as much progress, since what can a telemarketer use to barter for food, if we did not have money as a neutral source of exchange? The tangible things we need, like food and clothing can be bartered, but many modern jobs of value, would be hard to barter and would put too many people in a bind. Say you were a chemist who does soil samples, and you need chicken. How many chicken framers need that service, especially at a fair market price for analytical chemistry, so it can be used for barter. With money, the value of unrelated skills, has a common symbolic value; money, that allows for such trade.

The problem with money is enough money can buy skills to create prestige illusions that do not develop inner worth. If I was rich I can build a mansion, without me ever holding a hammer. I can get credit for building a mansion, without actually doing anything in the building trades beyond have the money; illusion. The truth is more like, I will barter for a mansion, with money, since I do not know which end of the hammer to hold. But this does not massage the ego. It is better for the ego to say I just built my new mansion.

Thieves steal to get the money to buy outward legitimacy. This does not change their true nature, but adds a nice shiny mask; pimp. Celebrity is rewarded well, as a job, and that money can make people think the Celebrity knows what they are talking about, since there is a faux association between means, and inner worth, beyond their niche; music.

If we got rid of money this illusion would become harder. But, as shown above, many good honest jobs would not be possible in a barter system, but rather all people would be forced to seek barter friendly jobs, which can then flood the market, so profit becomes deficit. Money by allowing trade of value, via money, allows the economy and value to grow; GNP. But that comes with a price.

 

[I Am Hugh]

If you look at Hollywood, their vision of our technological future, sees technology improving, but wars getting larger and more destructive. We learn to build Battle Stars which lead to Apocalyptic visions. Technology makes the outer world better, but the inner world of human nature does not keep pace, but keeps repeating the same mistakes but with better clothes and tech, until we are all peasants living with advanced weapon for defense.

I'm not sure what sort of bearing Hollyweird, or what's left of it, has on reality without considering what their influence and incentives might be. IO think that it would be an interesting study as long as it wasn't just taken from face value. Not surprisingly, mainstream media is more of an illusion than anything.

As far as money, money is only a means for exchange. A barter economy would not allow as much progress, since what can a telemarketer use to barter for food, if we did not have money as a neutral source of exchange?

I'm not talking about any sort of exchange. Robots do pretty much everything, no cost for anyone. You don't need exchange. You don't need to have exchange. It was at one point extremely useful. It's now obsolete.

The tangible things we need, like food and clothing can be bartered, but many modern jobs of value, would be hard to barter and would put too many people in a bind. Say you were a chemist who does soil samples, and you need chicken. How many chicken framers need that service, especially at a fair market price for analytical chemistry, so it can be used for barter. With money, the value of unrelated skills, has a common symbolic value; money, that allows for such trade.

You're thinking about the proposed obsolete system. No jobs in what I'm proposing unless voluntary out of interest or hobby. No one would be in a bind. No class divisions. No market price. No money. No barter. No trade. You want chickens, you got chickens.

The problem with money is enough money can buy skills to create prestige illusions that do not develop inner worth. If I was rich I can build a mansion, without me ever holding a hammer. I can get credit for building a mansion, without actually doing anything in the building trades beyond have the money; illusion. The truth is more like, I will barter for a mansion, with money, since I do not know which end of the hammer to hold. But this does not massage the ego. It is better for the ego to say I just built my new mansion.

Robots. Science and technology. For everyone.

Thieves steal to get the money to buy outward legitimacy. This does not change their true nature, but adds a nice shiny mask; pimp. Celebrity is rewarded well, as a job, and that money can make people think the Celebrity knows what they are talking about, since there is a faux association between means, and inner worth, beyond their niche; music.

Take away the money. Then what? How would inner nature change? How would art, music, science, technology, politics, religion, entertainment change if the incentive changes from being money to those things?

If we got rid of money this illusion would become harder.

The illusion would either become unnecessary or we would adapt. The potential abuse, manipulation and neglect of the new system is the point of this thread. With money those potential abuses are obvious but people think you have to have some sort of exchange so they typically don't see the obvious, don't examine, only criticize the results or propose some alternatives (socialism, communism, capitalism, etc.) Solutions that aren't solutions, only variations. They typically create illusions by throwing money at the problem, things get worse even if the alternative seems well intended or thought out. They aren't. Profit is the incentive. I have an expression I use. The system is the dragon. We don't need to fight or train the dragon; we need to starve it.

But, as shown above, many good honest jobs would not be possible in a barter system, but rather all people would be forced to seek barter friendly jobs, which can then flood the market, so profit becomes deficit. Money by allowing trade of value, via money, allows the economy and value to grow; GNP. But that comes with a price.

I'm talking about no jobs, no market, no money.