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Science can mislead just as religion can; both can lead to falsehoods and thus both can mislead.

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Science can mislead just as religion can; both can lead to falsehoods and thus both can mislead.

This is a quote from Realist's signature. I hope you don't mind, but please let me know if you do. I was wondering whether you could explain what you mean here. As it stands, I completely disagree in a couple of ways, but I want to be sure I'm reading you right. Would you mind clarifying?

A person who thinks everything is natural is just as unreasonable as an unreasonable superstitious person who thinks everything is supernatural.

I was also wondering about the second part of your signature, if you wouldn't mind clarifying that, too.

I'm curious how you think saying that everything is natural is being unreasonable.
 
If we want to know what the weather is like outside, looking out the window can mislead. So can closing your eyes and guessing. Both can lead to falsehoods and thus both can mislead.
 

uss_bigd

Well-Known Member
If we want to know what the weather is like outside, looking out the window can mislead. So can closing your eyes and guessing. Both can lead to falsehoods and thus both can mislead.


unless, you have a basis ... in such a case, it is no longer misleading.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Technically, even having a reasonable and solid basis CAN mislead. Weather can change during the time it takes to leave one's room and reach the outside.

Still, to claim that informed, scientific, naturalistic information is "just as" trustworthy as religious/superstitious/supernatural explanations is puzzling at best.
 

uss_bigd

Well-Known Member
Technically, even having a reasonable and solid basis CAN mislead. Weather can change during the time it takes to leave one's room and reach the outside.

Still, to claim that informed, scientific, naturalistic information is "just as" trustworthy as religious/superstitious/supernatural explanations is puzzling at best.


if that's the case nothing is factual anymore,are you comfortable with that?

besides, having a solid basis is the best way to reduce bias ... there are available basis that not mislead
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
if that's the case nothing is factual anymore,are you comfortable with that?

For all practical purposes, yes I am. A bit of uncertainty is a good thing and does not really hinder day-to-day life.

besides, having a solid basis is the best way to reduce bias ... there are available basis that not mislead

Surely science is not blind to such absolutely trustworthy sources, then. Unless it is somehow not aware of them, I guess.

Anyway, a source can't be trusted (except perhaps at a strictly personal level) until and unless it is tested, confirmed by facts that could conceivably show that it is not correct. You don't tell much which sources would be those that do not mislead, but if they can't be tested than they can't be trusted either.
 

uss_bigd

Well-Known Member
For all practical purposes, yes I am. A bit of uncertainty is a good thing and does not really hinder day-to-day life.



Surely science is not blind to such absolutely trustworthy sources, then. Unless it is somehow not aware of them, I guess.

Anyway, a source can't be trusted (except perhaps at a strictly personal level) until and unless it is tested, confirmed by facts that could conceivably show that it is not correct. You don't tell much which sources would be those that do not mislead, but if they can't be tested than they can't be trusted either.


Therefore, having a solid factual basis cannot mislead.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Science can mislead just as religion can; both can lead to falsehoods and thus both can mislead.
And ...
  • a GPS can mislead just as flipping a coin can mislead
  • oncology can mislead just as reading chicken entrails can mislead
  • ...
It's an inane statement.The follow-up statement is, if anything, even more vapid.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
It's My Birthday!
Well, when I was a little kid, we had a big old medical reference book. I ran into it a few years back and was really surprised to learn what Down Syndrome (referred to back in the 50s as Mongolism) was supposedly attributed to. I can't even remember what it was, now, but it was truly laughable to see what science thought the cause of it back then. So, I'd say that science can mislead to the extent that it simply doesn't have all the facts yet. I don't distrust science at all. I value it. On the other hand, I recognize that what science is saying today may not be the same thing as what it says 75 years from now.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Of course science can mislead. This is exactly why I feel it is so important to maintain an attitude of doubt and skepticism. And this is what the scientific attitude is, an attitude of open-minded skepticism. Religion on the other hand has been known to encourage an attitude unquestioned acceptance. Many religions promote the idea that believing something that runs contrary to logic and evidence is a virtue and that dogmatic positions should be defended against all reason.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The way I view this is science cannot mislead, with exception to exploring what is theoretical, and toward variables which affect outcome and conclusions. Guess it depends upon what exact science is to a person. -NM-
 

Realist

Agnostic theist
This is a quote from Realist's signature. I hope you don't mind, but please let me know if you do. I was wondering whether you could explain what you mean here. As it stands, I completely disagree in a couple of ways, but I want to be sure I'm reading you right. Would you mind clarifying?

Science can mislead just as religion can; both can lead to falsehoods and thus both can mislead.



I was also wondering about the second part of your signature, if you wouldn't mind clarifying that, too.

I'm curious how you think saying that everything is natural is being unreasonable.

I actually have another quote in place of the science being able to mislead quote. Simply put if anything can be wrong then it can mislead, that is if people don't notice the wrong and accept it. That is the case with science at times. Not only can you be misled by having false knowledge but you can also be misled by having a lack of knowledge. The things we don't know, when we come to know them may completely change the picture of how we thought the Universe was. For example, there are some conflicting and totally new views between classical physics and quantum physics. The "observer effect" in Quantum Physics imples that some subatomic particles don't exist until they are observed. Worse yet, some of them pop in out of existence or even worse, a subatomic particle can be in two different places at once. If all these findings maintain their accuracy, then this could mean that the physical universe is a direct result of consciousness (mind over matter???) and there seems to be some dice playing going on with the Universe, which is contrary to what Einstein thought. For all I know maybe some superconscious source like God or the collective conscious of all of us observing the Universe causes it to exist???


For the second or last quote, by it's very nature science does not make "absolute" statements. Saying that *everything* is natural is an absolute statement. Science deals in terms of probability, not absoluteness. Besides that I'd question making an absolute statement, w/out first having absolute knowledge, i.e. omniscience of the Universe which science clearly falls short at. This is not to disprove naturalism, but only to show that it is assumptious, unproven, and thus not yet having any logical basis to it.
 
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Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
I actually have another quote in place of the science being able to mislead quote. Simply put if anything can be wrong then it can mislead, that is if people don't notice the wrong and accept it. That is the case with science at times.

True; however, this does not in any way prove that science is invalid, or that faith is valid.

For example, there are some conflicting and totally new views between classical physics and quantum physics.

Classical and quantum physics don't conflict, they merely have different purviews. Classical physics deals with systems which are made up of so many tiny quantum systems that dealing with those systems in terms of quantae would be impractical. As such classical physics accepts a loss of precision for a gain of practicality.

The "observer effect" in Quantum Physics imples that some subatomic particles don't exist until they are observed. Worse yet, some of them pop in out of existence or even worse, a subatomic particle can be in two different places at once. If all these findings maintain their accuracy, then this could mean that the physical universe is a direct result of consciousness (mind over matter???) and there seems to be some dice playing going on with the Universe, which is contrary to what Einstein thought.

This is a misrepresentation of the observer effect. The observer effect is not so much that observation affects the system, but that the tools by which we observe interact with the system, producing an effect.

For example, if we observe a system visually, we do so by bouncing photons off of it. Comparatively gigantic things like atoms aren't affected significantly by the photon hitting it, but if we are observing a photon, bouncing a photon off of it is like seeing if a car is there by crashing another car into it. Of course this has an effect on the car (or photon).

For all I know maybe some superconscious source like God or the collective conscious of all of us observing the Universe causes it to exist???

Nope. My explanation of observer effect above refutes this idea.


For the second or last quote, by it's very nature science does not make "absolute" statements. Saying that *everything* is natural is an absolute statement. Science deals in terms of probability, not absoluteness. Besides that I'd question making an absolute statement, w/out first having absolute knowledge, i.e. omniscience of the Universe which science clearly falls short at. This is not to disprove naturalism, but only to show that it is assumptious, unproven, and thus not yet having any logical basis to it.

Probability is a logical basis. Faith is not a logical basis.

Your argument seems to be, "science doesn't generally make absolute statements, faith does, so faith wins!"
 
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