Science or Religion?

[Subduction Zone]

Moe than belief, it is how creative evolution works, you will one day be touched deeply by His love and know that there were things you were unaware of in your younger days as an atheist.

If it was more than belief you could support it. The same goes for creative evolution. It is a belief in something that one wishes was true. When one can only believe but not support one is wrong all too often.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

If it was more than belief you could support it. The same goes for creative evolution. It is a belief in something that one wishes was true. When one can only believe but not support one is wrong all too often.

I can, but the catch is if creative evolution has not evolved you to the point of being aware of your creator, then I can't change that. The proof is not from outside, not from me, not from an Angel, not from an external God, but from within you. And so God's love for you will one day bear fruit.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I can, but the catch is if creative evolution has not evolved you to the point of being aware of your creator, then I can't change that. The proof is not from outside, not from me, not from an Angel, not from an external God, but from within you. And so God's love for you will one day bear fruit.

Oh please, do not try to insult someone that way. You only have a belief. If you knew you could properly support your claims.

You also need to learn how concepts are reliably proven. Confirmation bias is not proof. And that appears to be all that you have.

What is ironic is that creationists usually have a worse understanding of the Bible than those that can show Genesis to be mythical.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Oh please, do not try to insult someone that way. You only have a belief. If you knew you could properly support your claims.

You also need to learn how concepts are reliably proven. Confirmation bias is not proof. And that appears to be all that you have.

What is ironic is that creationists usually have a worse understanding of the Bible than those that can show Genesis to be mythical.

See, you are a babe in the woods, the bible is only a book about God, religious practice is about realizing the God within you, not some entity from a book story, no matter how revered by some. Religious concepts are not proven, they can re realized which again is done from within, it is not like science, objective.

 

[Subduction Zone]

See, you are a babe in the woods, the bible is only a book about God, religious practice is about realizing the God within you, not some entity from a book story, no matter how revered by some. Religious concepts are not proven, they can re realized which again is done from within, it is not like science, objective.

Or you may only be describing yourself. The question is how do you test your beliefs? Can you do so properly?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Or you may only be describing yourself. The question is how do you test your beliefs? Can you do so properly?

Sure, but I did not have to test anything, I just practiced meditation over about five years, God reveals Himself from within.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sure, but I did not have to test anything, I just practiced meditation over about five years, God reveals Himself from within.

And there you appear to have deluded yourself. Being happy with your situation does not mean that your beliefs are correct. Meditation can often lead to such visions. The problem is that if they were from God one would expect some uniformity. That is not what is observed. Meditation is also highly subject to confirmation bias. You may believe it was a message from God. I would bet that it was not. And since you refuse to test your beliefs you will never know.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

And there you appear to have deluded yourself. Being happy with your situation does not mean that your beliefs are correct. Meditation can often lead to such visions. The problem is that if they were from God one would expect some uniformity. That is not what is observed. Meditation is also highly subject to confirmation bias. You may believe it was a message from God. I would bet that it was not. And since you refuse to test your beliefs you will never know.

Haha..an atheist pontificating on the efficacy of my religious practice. And you are asking me to ignore God realization, and test my beliefs. Are you not able to understand my writing, I told you that belief has nothing o do with it, God reveals Itself from within, there is no duality such as a believer and that believed in.

One of the things I've explained to atheists before is that it is impossible to convey a religious oneness experience to someone who has not realized it.

No tests can be done to prove God, it is within you and if It has not been realized, end of story.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Haha..an atheist pontificating on the efficacy of my religious practice. And you are asking me to ignore God realization, and test my beliefs. Are you not able to understand my writing, I told you that belief has nothing o do with it, God reveals Itself from within, there is no duality such as a believer and that believed in.

One of the things I've explained to atheists before is that it is impossible to convey a religious oneness experience to someone who has not realized it.

No tests can be done to prove God, it is within you and if It has not been realized, end of story.

No, please let's try to be honest, I am not asking you to ignore anything. You just admitted that you have no rational reason for your beliefs, though you do not know that you did that.

I asked how you would test your beliefs. That is not asking you to ignore them. You would not be testing to prove God.

Tell me, do you think that you are God. You more than implied it.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

No, please let's try to be honest, I am not asking you to ignore anything. You just admitted that you have no rational reason for your beliefs, though you do not know that you did that.

I asked how you would test your beliefs. That is not asking you to ignore them. You would not be testing to prove God.

Tell me, do you think that you are God. You more than implied it.

Haha...I did not admit to anything of the sort, just the opposite. God is real, unless one realizes God, all is vanity.

I understand your question, no I am not God, but God is me. God is you too which is why I keep saying God loves you. The logic involved here is that God is everything, the Universe if you like. Everything that exists is an expression of God, an expression of the Universe, but only the more evolved have realized it to the extent they have. An Angel for example has realized God/Universe to a greater extent than a human, but no part, no expression (except the whole) is God, only the whole Universe is God.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Haha...I did not admit to anything of the sort, just the opposite. God is real, unless one realizes God, all is vanity.

I understand your question, no I am not God, but God is me. God is you too which is why I keep saying God loves you. The logic involved here is that God is everything, the Universe if you like. Everything that exists is an expression of God, an expression of the Universe, but only the more evolved have realized it to the extent they have. An Angel for example has realized God/Universe to a greater extent than a human, but no part, no expression (except the whole) is God, only the whole Universe is God.

You at actually did admit that. I told you that you would not understand how you admitted to an irrational belief.

You admitted to not testing your beliefs, in fact you could not see a reason to do so. When you refuse to test your ideas, or in this case supposed vision, you have no ability to understand if it was real or not. Or event its source. It could have been Satan. You really don't know.

And you are in effect claiming to be God since only he could know such a thing without testing. Also you indicated that you thought that you were God. The tests suggested were to test you and your beliefs. You claimed I was asking you to test God. Since the tests were only of you and your belief that indicates that you thought yourself to be God.

 

[`mud]

One's own cognition is one's `god`....one's `spirit` is that of knowing what we've learned,

eventually one's `spirit` leaves, one's mass is spent, and the `spirit` joins the grand Spirit,

while leaving cognition behind with all the other mass, and we renew are Stuff.

We are only spirit and Stuff.....the Stuff will always win this mental competition.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You at actually did admit that. I told you that you would not understand how you admitted to an irrational belief.

You admitted to not testing your beliefs, in fact you could not see a reason to do so. When you refuse to test your ideas, or in this case supposed vision, you have no ability to understand if it was real or not. Or event its source. It could have been Satan. You really don't know.

And you are in effect claiming to be God since only he could know such a thing without testing. Also you indicated that you thought that you were God. The tests suggested were to test you and your beliefs. You claimed I was asking you to test God. Since the tests were only of you and your belief that indicates that you thought yourself to be God.

I suppose I should be more patient with you, you are only trying to understand what I am conveying with a limited understanding, that of an atheistic belief.

The logic is this, you can not understand a subjective reality if you have not experienced it, it is like a young child who has never experienced sex, they may disbelieve, deny the reality until such as time as they have an actual experience. You my friend have not yet had a subjective Divine experience. Blessed are they who believe but have not yet had an experience.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I suppose I should be more patient with you, you are only trying to understand what I am conveying with a limited understanding, that of an atheistic belief.

The logic is this, you can not understand a subjective reality if you have not experienced it, it is like a young child who has never experienced sex, they may disbelieve, deny the reality until such as time as they have an actual experience. You my friend have not yet had a subjective Divine experience. Blessed are they who believe but have not yet had an experience.

LOL! Please, I am not the one with a limited understanding. I used to be a Christian.

And you almost certainly did not have a "Divine experience" and part of you seems to know that. Real events are testable and can be confirmed or refuted. You admitted that you have never tested your experience. Since others also have had the same but will clearly disagree with you and yet believe just as strongly that tells us that some of you are wrong no matter how strong your belief is. That means to be valid you would need to be able to test it. Your claims are of no value here.

Yes, you believe. So what? Flat Earthers often believe just as strongly that the Earth is Flat. Believing really really hard does not make it true.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

LOL! Please, I am not the one with a limited understanding. I used to be a Christian.

And you almost certainly did not have a "Divine experience" and part of you seems to know that. Real events are testable and can be confirmed or refuted. You admitted that you have never tested your experience. Since others also have had the same but will clearly disagree with you and yet believe just as strongly that tells us that some of you are wrong no matter how strong your belief is. That means to be valid you would need to be able to test it. Your claims are of no value here.

Yes, you believe. So what? Flat Earthers often believe just as strongly that the Earth is Flat. Believing really really hard does not make it true.

Has it ever occurred to you that I do not have to prove anything to you, an atheist comes to a forum and practically demands religious minded folk that they provide proof of God, you are an atheist for God's sake, you have a closed mind, no one is going to change that except you. And fwiw, I don't mind if you are an atheist. God still loves you!

 

[Subduction Zone]

Has it ever occurred to you that I do not have to prove anything to you, an atheist comes to a forum and practically demands religious minded folk that they provide proof of God, you are an atheist for God's sake, you have a closed mind, no one is going to change that except you. And fwiw, I don't mind if you are an atheist. God still loves you!

When one makes a public statement, especially one designed to give a person some authority, yes that person does "have" to prove what they claimed. If the cannot or refuse to do so not only do they lose what little credibility that they had it makes them look as if they are making up stories.

You are in effect openly admitting that you have no more authority when it comes to your religion than I do. I am fine with that.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

When one makes a public statement, especially one designed to give a person some authority, yes that person does "have" to prove what they claimed. If the cannot or refuse to do so not only do they lose what little credibility that they had it makes them look as if they are making up stories.

You are in effect openly admitting that you have no more authority when it comes to your religion than I do. I am fine with that.

So an atheist comes to a religious forum and lo, there are people actually making public statements about their religious experiences....Golly! The atheist is convinced he has a no-god given duty to tell the religious soul that they "have" to prove to the atheist who does not believe in God that God exists.

Well to know whether a religious person has no more authority when it comes to religion than you do as an atheist, first of all I would have to know what authority do you have? How many years have you been meditating and what experiences have you had?

 

[samtonga43]

Moe than belief, it is how creative evolution works, you will one day be touched deeply by His love and know that there were things you were unaware of in your younger days as an atheist.

Yes. This is exactly what happened to me when I was still an atheist.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yes. This is exactly what happened to me when I was still an atheist.

I am so pleased for you samtonga, and the good news is that the process continues. It may not be linear, but it's that old thing about for every step towards God, God takes two steps towards you. Though it is also a sobering thought that the straight path is not easy, but the rewards are worth it, unconditional love.

 

[samtonga43]

I am so pleased for you samtonga, and the good news is that the process continues. It may not be linear, but it's that old thing about for every step towards God, God takes two steps towards you. Though it is also a sobering thought that the straight path is not easy, but the rewards are worth it, unconditional love.

Yes, that Love that surpasses all knowledge (Ephesians, I think).

I believe that He loves SZ as if there were ONLY SZ to love. One day SZ may see this.