Science Proves Nature Was Created

[leibowde84]

Your current understanding does not define nonsensical.

Science ridiculing religion for believing in magic and then saying the universe magically appeared from nothing is nonsensical. There is every reason to believe there was something before the Big Bang -absolutely no reason to believe nothing preceded the Big Bang.

The Big Bang may have defined the relative timing of all that proceeded from it, but that is not the same thing as creating time itself.


Unless we are to accept that magic is not possible now -but was that non-thing that produced the universe -and was possible only at the point of the Big Bang..........
then the Big Bang was produced by and preceded by something -it is relative to that something -and so could not be the beginning of time itself.
We view time as relative to that point -but that is not to say that point is not relative to something else.
That would be nonsensical.

I agree that we are not at a point that we could understand what preceded the Big Bang, but absolutely nothing preceding it is an impossibility.

It might be said that in one sense, time isn't a thing -but a measure of other things, just as an inch is a measure of other things. We can se a representation of an inch on a ruler, but it is really two points with a specific amount of some material between them.
As long as something exists to measure, measurement exists (even if it is not considered.)

So.... If literally nothing existed at some point -and the Big Bang was relative to literally nothing -preceded by literally nothing -then I would agree that it was the beginning of time, but I cannot accept that such was a possibility. As long as there was something that could be -and would be -something else, there was "time" -a measure of the relationships of things.

If the Big Bang was the singularity it is thought to have been, then the relationships of things produced by the Big Bang expanded from -perhaps decompressed from -the Big Bang -like inch lines on a tape measure with compressed material between them stretching out, or a stretchy tape measure, but that expansion would be relative to something before or beyond the Big Bang.

"Post Big Bang Universe Time" would have begun with the Big Bang -but not "time"

Hold up. Where are you getting this idea that "magic" was involved. I never made that claim. No natural process, whether we understand it or not, is "magic".

 

[Etritonakin]

Hold up. Where are you getting this idea that "magic" was involved. I never made that claim. No natural process, whether we understand it or not, is "magic".

If literally nothing preceded the Big Bang.... then there was magically a Big Bang....

 

[Etritonakin]

Well, there is none (else) like me either, so?

Incidentally, if there is none like Him, then, if He is, He is not like Him. Which would vaporized God in a cloud of logical contradictions.

As usual, whoever wrote the Bible did not pay attention to logic. But what should we expect from some ancient goat herders?

Ciao

- viole

Oh...... OK

 

[Bunyip]

If literally nothing preceded the Big Bang.... then there was magically a Big Bang....

How can anything precede time?

What is north of the North Pole?
What is before the beginning?

If time begins with the big bang - how can anything precede the beginning of time?

 

[Thief]

Stopped to say....the heavy elements are formed in very large stars...
and the really heavy items form in the final stages of the stars life.
Iron is the last element a star can form and remain stable.
Nova is pending.

the smaller stars like our sun Sol....
will simply go dark....not enough mass to form heavier elements.

the heavy items that support life were formed in other stars.
that chemistry had to find it's way here from great distance.

I say....God did it.
this earth is too complex to be such a complicated 'accident'.

 

[Thief]

How can anything precede time?

What is north of the North Pole?
What is before the beginning?

If time begins with the big bang - how can anything precede the beginning of time?

Time is not a force or a substance.
It is a cognitive device made by Man to serve Man.

Before Man, time was never a consideration.

 

[Bunyip]

Time is not a force or a substance.
It is a cognitive device made by Man to serve Man.

Before Man, time was never a consideration.

You have a gift for word salad.

 

[Seeker of Ka]

The title is a bit of a play on words, but many seem to think of "nature" in terms of what now exists -sometimes as if it has always been that way.

However, what now exists was brought into being by a very specific process. It was created -even if in the broadest sense.

(The following ideas may not have originated with me, but they are interesting to consider, nonetheless.)

"During most of their lives, stars fuse hydrogen into helium in their cores, but the fusion process rarely stops at this point; most of the helium in the universe was made during the initial big bang. When the star's core runs out of hydrogen, the star begins to die out. The processes that occur during this period form the heavier elements.

Read more: Formation of Elements - Formation Of Elements - Burning, Stars, Helium, and Star - JRank Articles http://science.jrank.org/pages/2412/Elements-Formation-Formation-elements.html#ixzz3jBrFgIPt
"

Something caused that which existed before the big bang (Pre-Big Bang Nature?) to become the big bang -which, in turn, became the elements, etc., which, in turn, became life -or, at the very least, became that which allowed physical life to exist.

The five elements present in all DNA are Carbon, Oxygen, Hydrogen, Nitrogen and
Phosphorus.

If evolution based on those elements was inevitable, it was only inevitable after those elements existed, and only due to the forces which brought them together in the necessary order inevitably doing so....
unless.... the formation of those elements was also inevitable.

If evolution was inevitable due to the nature of the big bang, and the universe is generally similar everywhere, we should expect life to be present in many places throughout the universe -at least eventually.

By inevitable, I mean certainty not requiring forethought, design, effort, etc. -at least at a certain point

If one considers God to be the creator of the heavens (universe), the worlds, the earth -essentially all that we can know -one ought not assume the point at which God did any specific thing -especially if it is not specified. Even if something is specified, one ought to acknowledge that one does not know the specifics about that.
Biblical scripture advises us to "prove all things" -so science, in its purest form -ought to be seen as an awesome tool to do so -not something to be rejected.

Scripture specifies that God did certain things after the heavens and earth were in existence (actually, "specifies" is not very accurate, as very few specific details are given, and much is often assumed buy the reader) -but we have no clue what was inevitable at what point -what would absolutely require forethought, design and action at what point to achieve what now is -and even science is far from knowing the nature of nature -especially before the Big Bang -well enough to know absolutely.

Many parts of the bible indicate that what now is was planned before it was initiated -so we ought not to scoff at the idea of inevitability even if we believe in a creator.
We, ourselves, can change what was otherwise inevitable -and make another thing inevitable.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Ecc 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

Luke 14:28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?

1: Until the Bible can sort out its literal and theological contradictions I will not even consider taking it seriously.
2: The Big-bang is not the universal theory of all scientist.
3: Many Big-bang theorist beilive that the universe existed before the Big-bang but in a condensed state.
4: If a completed universe seems to have need of a creator does the more complicated creator not have a need for a creator?

 

[Seeker of Ka]

Time is not a force or a substance.
It is a cognitive device made by Man to serve Man.

Before Man, time was never a consideration.

Time distorts in gravity, therefore it is possible to measure the distortion, therefore we can see the direct effects of time on reality, therefore time is more than just a concept.

 

[Shad]

Time is not a force or a substance.
It is a cognitive device made by Man to serve Man.

Before Man, time was never a consideration.

Nope. GR states time is part of reality, it is not a construct developed by humans. You are thinking of time as a clock, it is not. Go look up time dilation which has evidence supporting that time is a thing.

 

[Thief]

Nope. GR states time is part of reality, it is not a construct developed by humans. You are thinking of time as a clock, it is not. Go look up time dilation which has evidence supporting that time is a thing.

I will never concede my view point.
Time is not a substance.
Time is not a force.

It is one measurement divided by another.
It can only be found on a chalkboard.

 

[Thief]

Time distorts in gravity, therefore it is possible to measure the distortion, therefore we can see the direct effects of time on reality, therefore time is more than just a concept.

Movement distorts gravity.
Time is a measure of movement.

 

[Thief]

You have a gift for word salad.

but I never eat my own words.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

The title is a bit of a play on words, but many seem to think of "nature" in terms of what now exists -sometimes as if it has always been that way.

However, what now exists was brought into being by a very specific process. It was created -even if in the broadest sense.

(The following ideas may not have originated with me, but they are interesting to consider, nonetheless.)

"During most of their lives, stars fuse hydrogen into helium in their cores, but the fusion process rarely stops at this point; most of the helium in the universe was made during the initial big bang. When the star's core runs out of hydrogen, the star begins to die out. The processes that occur during this period form the heavier elements.

Read more: Formation of Elements - Formation Of Elements - Burning, Stars, Helium, and Star - JRank Articles http://science.jrank.org/pages/2412/Elements-Formation-Formation-elements.html#ixzz3jBrFgIPt
"

Something caused that which existed before the big bang (Pre-Big Bang Nature?) to become the big bang -which, in turn, became the elements, etc., which, in turn, became life -or, at the very least, became that which allowed physical life to exist.

The five elements present in all DNA are Carbon, Oxygen, Hydrogen, Nitrogen and
Phosphorus.

If evolution based on those elements was inevitable, it was only inevitable after those elements existed, and only due to the forces which brought them together in the necessary order inevitably doing so....
unless.... the formation of those elements was also inevitable.

If evolution was inevitable due to the nature of the big bang, and the universe is generally similar everywhere, we should expect life to be present in many places throughout the universe -at least eventually.

By inevitable, I mean certainty not requiring forethought, design, effort, etc. -at least at a certain point

If one considers God to be the creator of the heavens (universe), the worlds, the earth -essentially all that we can know -one ought not assume the point at which God did any specific thing -especially if it is not specified. Even if something is specified, one ought to acknowledge that one does not know the specifics about that.
Biblical scripture advises us to "prove all things" -so science, in its purest form -ought to be seen as an awesome tool to do so -not something to be rejected.

Scripture specifies that God did certain things after the heavens and earth were in existence (actually, "specifies" is not very accurate, as very few specific details are given, and much is often assumed buy the reader) -but we have no clue what was inevitable at what point -what would absolutely require forethought, design and action at what point to achieve what now is -and even science is far from knowing the nature of nature -especially before the Big Bang -well enough to know absolutely.

Many parts of the bible indicate that what now is was planned before it was initiated -so we ought not to scoff at the idea of inevitability even if we believe in a creator.
We, ourselves, can change what was otherwise inevitable -and make another thing inevitable.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Ecc 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

Luke 14:28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?

I an answer the title with a "no" but the rest of it here doesn't seem to be building up to a point. In so much as I can gather you mean to say that "the elements were created during the big bang but what caused the big bang could be god"?

 

[Etritonakin]

1: Until the Bible can sort out its literal and theological contradictions I will not even consider taking it seriously.
2: The Big-bang is not the universal theory of all scientist.
3: Many Big-bang theorist beilive that the universe existed before the Big-bang but in a condensed state.
4: If a completed universe seems to have need of a creator does the more complicated creator not have a need for a creator?

1: If you seriously considered it, you could see past apparent contradictions. There is pure gold there, but you have to dig it up, knock the dirt off, smelt it and remove the impurities which are truly not a part of it.
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

2: We'll know more in time.

3: It stands to reason that the universe is an arrangement/rearrangement of what preceded it -but how it came to be packaged (condensed, if that is the case) in its precise state and executed to produce the universe and all therein is the question on my mind. Even if there was no designer, it would still be a valid consideration.

4: These are just some things I have been considering -not meant to be a statement of facts. I'm just a noob.
Technically, the creator and creation are all the same "One". That which could act and that which could be acted upon (or that which could interact) would have always existed together. The only question would be in what state they existed at any time.
(Even if we consider only Earthly life and man's present state, we see both evolution and will/design/creativity -and they are parts of the same whole. The only question is which is responsible for what at any specific time.)
What is written about the God of the bible, for example, indicates that he -in a very broad sense -self-evolves. That is not to say he evolved by the natural processes of the physical universe, but that he essentially is everything and becomes everything else.
"He" could be described as the mind of all things, but all things would be the body of the mind -and so could be included in "He" also.
If God is all-knowing and all-powerful, etc., then the minds of men would essentially be God relinquishing some power and some ability to know in order to create unique creative individuals -so our existence is in a sense God evolving and reproducing -in a sense subdividing, and in a sense increasing.
It is written that of the increase of the government of Christ there will be no end -but that also brings up the question of how little God might have governed at any time -and at what point God ("I AM" -essentially everything which became everything else) is irreducible. I have no clue.

 

[Etritonakin]

I an answer the title with a "no" but the rest of it here doesn't seem to be building up to a point. In so much as I can gather you mean to say that "the elements were created during the big bang but what caused the big bang could be god"?

I can be frustrating like that. Sometimes I am not actually making a point, but simply typing out the wanderings of my mind as it considers many points.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I can be frustrating like that. Sometimes I am not actually making a point, but simply typing out the wanderings of my mind as it considers many points.

Okay. In that time can you summarize your point thus far?

 

[Etritonakin]

Time distorts in gravity, therefore it is possible to measure the distortion, therefore we can see the direct effects of time on reality, therefore time is more than just a concept.

I'd say forces act in varying degrees upon the relationships of things -essentially slowing or speeding up their activity in relationship to other things. The interrelationship of all things is essentially one very complex clock -or many clocks.
I could use magnetism to slow down an actual clock, for example, in relation to other clocks.
Time is interrelationship -it is a thing as long as things interrelate, in that sense -which they always do.

 

[Etritonakin]

Okay. In that time can you summarize your point thus far?

Perhaps..... "All of the evidence is not in."

 

[Thief]

I'd say forces act in varying degrees upon the relationships of things -essentially slowing or speeding up their activity in relationship to other things. The interrelationship of all things is essentially one very complex clock -or many clocks.
I could use magnetism to slow down an actual clock, for example, in relation to other clocks.
Time is interrelationship -it is a thing as long as things interrelate, in that sense -which they always do.

nay....
All things inter-relate....
but that does not bring time in the realm of the tangible.
It's all in your head.