Science, religion and the truth

[mikkel_the_dane]

But it's also fact.

Yes, subjectivity is a fact and it is that which allows me to believe differently than you. So my meaning is a fact and your meaning though different form mine is a fact.
It is a fact of the universe, that there are religious and non-religious humans and that is how the universe works in part. Glad, we got that cleared up.

Regards
Mikkel

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No consciousness = NO BODY,
"nobody", get it ???

But all is consciousness, yet there is no consciousness.

 

[Polymath257]

Listen, there are plenty of people right now who can go to ANY physical location in this universe
"consciously". They don't need "probes".
They can also "heal" diseases with the power of their minds (consciousness).

That is the claim. I would love to see independent confirmation of this.

For example, what have these people discovered that was verified *after* they announced it?

You think you know a lot, but don't really know just how "ignorant" you really are.

Please be careful of rule 1.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Yes, subjectivity is a fact and it is that which allows me to believe differently than you. So my meaning is a fact and your meaning though different form mine is a fact.
It is a fact of the universe, that there are religious and non-religious humans and that is how the universe works in part. Glad, we got that cleared up.

Regards
Mikkel

I can see we are not going to agree on much. I did read some philosophy as a youth (Russell, Sartre, Descartes, etc.) and it seems to me this has a habit of tying itself into ever tighter knots, most of which are not that useful. But just my opinion.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I can see we are not going to agree on much. I did read some philosophy as a youth (Russell, Sartre, Descartes, etc.) and it seems to me this has a habit of tying itself into ever tighter knots, most of which are not that useful. But just my opinion.

Okay, we are not parts in the universe. So how can we communicate through the universe since I am assume that the Internet is a part of the universe.
I am trying to get you to understand that your opinion and mine are both parts of the universe and in part how the universe works. If we can't agree on that, then how can we communicate at all about different opinions?

Regards
Mikkel

 

[Polymath257]

Right now, you and others like Polymath257, are "UNCONSCIOUS" .
Oh, I know you think you are "aware"....and you are "aware"
BUT you are not aware of your "SELF".

Again, such is your belief and your claim. But why should I believe what you say is accurate?

 

[Polymath257]

Yes.....there are TWO of "you".
Here , I will show you..................wait for it.............wait for it........
..........wait for it..............wait for it.....


THERE, do you see ?
no ?


Then "who" were "you" talking to while you were waiting ?
if not your "SELF" ?

I wasn't talking to anyone.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Again, such is your belief and your claim. But why should I believe what you say is accurate?

You don't have to believe as other humans believe as long as your beliefs work. That is not different than other humans.

Unreal beliefs can still produces real behavior and consequences. That is so across both religion and non-religion.
How truth works for the subjective, is not the same as how it works the objective.

Regards
Mikkel

 

[Mock Turtle]

Okay, we are not parts in the universe. So how can we communicate through the universe since I am assume that the Internet is a part of the universe.
I am trying to get you to understand that your opinion and mine are both parts of the universe and in part how the universe works. If we can't agree on that, then how can we communicate at all about different opinions?

Regards
Mikkel

I know this but I don't place any inherent value on such - so as to affect existence - which as I commented earlier just rolls on regardless of what we do, think, or believe. That is why I am perhaps less tolerant of many views that don't seem to be that useful, especially when they tend to cause more friction and discord when it needn't be so. After all, living is what we do regardless of what we might want to believe, and if some beliefs are inherently harmful to others then I think it is our duty to point this out.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I know this but I don't place any inherent value on such - so as to affect existence - which as I commented earlier just rolls on regardless of what we do, think, or believe. That is why I am perhaps less tolerant of many views that don't seem to be that useful, especially when they tend to cause more friction and discord when it needn't be so. After all, living is what we do regardless of what we might want to believe, and if some beliefs are inherently harmful to others then I think it is our duty to point this out.

Yes, we are getting there. It is about how beliefs work, because that is your belief. So that is useful, yet beliefs are not useful. I will not let go of the apparent incoherence of your belief system. Either you stop treating your own beliefs as special and really useful or this goes on.
Beliefs influence humans and and that is a part of existence. Or humans are not a part of existence.

I am trying to get you to give up this "weird" dualism that beliefs are not a part of the universe, yet they influence how humans' lives are and that you speak with a straight face about useful, yet that is subjective and not science.

You use your notion of useful to evaluate other humans' behavior. Just come out and admit that is subjective. Be honest.

Regards
Mikkel

 

[WhyIsThatSo]

I wasn't talking to anyone.

You talk to your SELF, every second of every day,
and your SELF never goes away, even after death.
You can deny this if you like, but it does not change anything.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You talk to your SELF, every second of every day,
and your SELF never goes away, even after death.
You can deny this if you like, but it does not change anything.

So who is this written to, yourself?

 

[WhyIsThatSo]

So who is this written to, yourself?

Your SELF, my SELF, doesn't matter,
we are ALL of the same 'SELF'.

The problem is that very few can "see" it.

 

[Polymath257]

You talk to your SELF, every second of every day,
and your SELF never goes away, even after death.
You can deny this if you like, but it does not change anything.

You might have a voice going on all the time, but not everyone does. My internal voice is silent most of the time.

As for death, as far as I can see, it is simply the end of consciousness.

And your pinion doesn't change anything either. Do you have any *evidence* your viewpoint is correct?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Your SELF, my SELF, doesn't matter,
we are ALL of the same 'SELF'.

The problem is that very few can "see" it.

So how come you have to communicate like this? If we were the same, you wouldn't have to do this. But it follows that we are not same, because you communicate to me as another. You render your point meaningless by the need to communicate to another human, me.

You are trying to convince me, but that means that we are not the same. QED

 

[Polymath257]

Your SELF, my SELF, doesn't matter,
we are ALL of the same 'SELF'.

The problem is that very few can "see" it.

Or, another option: those that *can* see it are delusional. or mistaken. or subject to an illusion.

 

[WhyIsThatSo]

You might have a voice going on all the time, but not everyone does. My internal voice is silent most of the time.

As for death, as far as I can see, it is simply the end of consciousness.

And your pinion doesn't change anything either. Do you have any *evidence* your viewpoint is correct?

Consciousness is the very essence of what "God" is.
You can claim you have no "thought" all you want, but I know better.
And when we die, that very same thought (consciousness) will still be there with you.

I have died thousands of times in a thousand different bodies,
you, not so much ( I can tell ).

 

[WhyIsThatSo]

So how come you have to communicate like this? If we were the same, you wouldn't have to do this. But it follows that we are not same, because you communicate to me as another. You render your point meaningless by the need to communicate to another human, me.

You are trying to convince me, but that means that we are not the same. QED

No your nonsense tries to make me believe that you are not a human being,
the only problem between us is the same as it is with me and MOST other human beings,
and that is that I know you better than you know your SELF.

and you don't like that.

 

[Polymath257]

I can see we are not going to agree on much. I did read some philosophy as a youth (Russell, Sartre, Descartes, etc.) and it seems to me this has a habit of tying itself into ever tighter knots, most of which are not that useful. But just my opinion.

Philosophy can be fun for late nights with friends. It can be amusing to ponder the imponderables.

But as an actual area of study it is best when it points out hidden assumptions presenting interesting paradoxes and worst when claiming to have an answer that cannot be denied.

 

[Polymath257]

Consciousness is the very essence of what "God" is.

A claim made with no evidence.

You can claim you have no "thought" all you want, but I know better.

Did I say I had no thought? No, I said I have no voice at times. I just am.

And when we die, that very same thought (consciousness) will still be there with you.

Another claim made with no evidence. In fact, the majority of the evidence points the other way.

I have died thousands of times in a thousand different bodies,
you, not so much ( I can tell ).

Well, I guess you have your beliefs, then. I don't agree.

Once again, I understand what you are saying. I played with such ideas in my own youth. But I also found out that I was simply playing with myself and not learning a thing from it. YMMV.