Science, religion and the truth

[Jim]

STEM is not all of reality. You can't use STEM on all of reality. Stop doing that. Admit when you do something else that STEM and maybe start treating that as true of and a fact of reality, i.e. that you do other things than STEM.

Regards
Mikkel

People can do that differently. I’m wondering what good you think it might do you or anyone else, to tell them not to.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

...Good post...
So my question to you is having a set of truths about the nature of truth the only real truth?

No, I am a skeptic. I use the word truth, because it is, how other humans in the culture, I am a part of, talk. I don't believe in truth, just as some people don't believe in God, but still talk about gods.

I believe in what works good and useful.

Regards
Mikkel

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

When I do math, it is a part of reality that I am doing math. That doesn't make the math itself a good descriptor of reality.

There are many things of great importance that are subjective. Aesthetics and morality are two big ones. They are NOT factual for that reason. Whether they are included in 'reality' depends on definitions.

So where do "reality" exist? In what "reality" is it or is it not a part of "reality"?
What is this reality of yours?

Regards
Mikkel

 

[Jim]

I don't believe in truth ...

From your posts, it looks to me like you believe in truth as much, and in the same way, as anyone else. The only difference I see is that you don’t call it “the truth.” Not calling it “the truth” doesn’t make the behavior any less harmful or more beneficial. In fact, it might even add to the confusion.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No, it is definitional. That is not the same as being subjective. Using different definitions simply means we are discussing different things. Since there is a standard definition of the term 'science', using a different definition only serves to create confusion and miscommunication.



The history shows that we find out more about the world when we use a definition of science that does not include subjectivity. Whether you want that as a goal is, of course, subjective.

Okay, are subjective goals a part of reality? How you know, that you have subjective goals? How you know, how to explain that? Do you know, how to achieve those? And yet that is not knowledge, because you apparently don't know all of this?
Could you find out more about the world if you included subjectivity. It does seem to be a part of the world?

Regards
Mikkel

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That which is objective. It is an objective thing that I can do math at a certain level of competence. Whether anything I find in doing that math has anything to say about reality is a different question.

But that sentence is not objective. It only has subjective meaning in you. That is the game we are playing.

Regards
Mikkel

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

^ I really hate it when people confuse hubris and verbosity with insight.

How subjective of you. Is this a fact or even true?

Given a reasonably broad definition of the word 'hate' as used colloquially, me statement was true, factual, and explicitly subjective.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Well, I do it different and that is also true, otherwise I couldn't do it.

The reasons that we will put forward to support our views will decide that.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

People can do that differently. I’m wondering what good you think it might do you or anyone else, to tell them not to.

Well, I don't know if I am doing any good. I am trying, but I am in effect also good at fighting with words. And I fight the rationalists, who think they can define reality by using words.

Regards
Mikkel

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

From your posts, it looks to me like you believe in truth as much, and in the same way, as anyone else. The only difference I see is that you don’t call it “the truth.” Not calling it “the truth” doesn’t make the behavior any less harmful or more beneficial. In fact, it might even add to the confusion.

Well, yes, you have a point, but I am trying to avoid the truth, because the truth is a way to claim power over people. I try to make us equal in that there is no THE TRUTH for any of us as all of us apparently.

Regards
Mikkel

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The reasons that we will put forward to support our views will decide that.

No, because we are not a "we". We have been here before. You don't speak for a "we" and neither do I. You just believe that you do and I still do it differently than you. So in effect we are not a "we".

Regards
Mikkel

PS And no, we are not one, because I just answer two.

 

[Jim]

Well, yes, you have a point, but I am trying to avoid the truth, because the truth is a way to claim power over people. I try to make us equal in that there is no THE TRUTH for any of us as all of us apparently.

Regards
Mikkel

I’m thinking now that maybe you never really understand understood what I thought you did, or you’ve completely forgotten it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

By we I mean you and me. If you and I have different opinions, then the reasons that You and I give in support of your and my view will decide the issue.
Whether you and I are the same or not will come only later.

 

[dfnj]

No, I am a skeptic. I use the word truth, because it is, how other humans in the culture, I am a part of, talk. I don't believe in truth, just as some people don't believe in God, but still talk about gods.

You need to be skeptical about your own skepticism. Until you accept your own self-inconsistency you will not be able to appreciate the ways other people think.

 

[Nakosis]

Okay, something simple. The grammatical status of the words "the truth". Those words means that there is one version of the truth. So there can't be different versions of the truth. That is simple to test: 2 examples are given now.

Someone: The truth of how the world is...
Me: Stop, you don't have to continue, because I can just do that differently and think differently about the truth than you. I.e. as long as humans can't in practice eliminate subjectivity, I just have to do something different than you and out the window goes the truth as only one truth for the world.

Someone: The one true God is...
Me: Stop, you don't have to continue, because I can just do that differently and believe differently about God than you. I.e. as long as humans can't in practice eliminate subjectivity, I just have to do something different than you and out the window goes the one true God.

Yeah, it is that simple. In practice both science and religion are limited as it comes to the truth. I know, how to test for it, because I accept for the subjective subjective results as valid evidence. For the objective I accept objective evidence as valid, but I try not to confuse the 2.
That is how I learned to do it and I accept that you can do subjectivity and objectivity differently, but I will still just check if what you do appears to be subjective regardless of you claim science or religion, how ever you do it.

Regards
Mikkel

So are you saying there exists a subjective truth as well as an objective truth?

Someone once told we there is my truth, your truth and the truth that we share.

 

[Jim]

Well, I don't know if I am doing any good. I am trying ...

Maybe so, but maybe you also have interests contrary to that, which come ahead of that sometimes.

 

[dfnj]

By we I mean you and me. If you and I have different opinions, then the reasons that You and I give in support of your and my view will decide the issue.
Whether you and I are the same or not will come later.

Years ago when I was still doing engineering I was working with another guy on problems. Sometimes we would come up with different solutions to a technical problem. So we would argue over which solution we should choose for the project. A really funny thing would happen when we started to argue strongly in favor of own position. And this happened several times. About half way through the argument I would start arguing for his solution. And he would start arguing for my solution. At the end, we were convinced the other person was originally right. It was really quite funny. I think lots of times we just let other people decide.

 

[Polymath257]

Well, I don't know if I am doing any good. I am trying, but I am in effect also good at fighting with words. And I fight the rationalists, who think they can define reality by using words.

I think we can define the *word* reality. But, once that is defined, we cannot then use only words to discover it.

 

[dfnj]

So are you saying there exists a subjective truth as well as an objective truth?

Someone once told we there is my truth, your truth and the truth that we share.

I'm surprised nobody as posted the story yet. But here goes:

One day two monks were in a garden arguing subjectivity versus objectivity. The Zen master hearing them arguing approached the two students. The Zen master asked, "that rock over there, does that exist inside your head or outside your head?". One of the monks looked up at the Zen master and replied, "Well, our religious scripture tells us that all truth is subjective so that rock over there only exists inside my head." At which point the Zen master replies, "Then it must be pretty heavy all day walking around with that rock in your head!"

 

[bobhikes]

Yeah, it is that simple. In practice both science and religion are limited as it comes to the truth. I know, how to test for it, because I accept for the subjective subjective results as valid evidence. For the objective I accept objective evidence as valid, but I try not to confuse the 2.
That is how I learned to do it and I accept that you can do subjectivity and objectivity differently, but I will still just check if what you do appears to be subjective regardless of you claim science or religion, how ever you do it.

Regards
Mikkel

What if the truth is that everything is unique and so that we can survive better we agree to call patterns the same until we find better patterns or disagree.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I’m thinking now that maybe you never really understand what I thought you did, or you’ve completely forgotten it.

No, I know it still. But I don't react well to stress. That is not an excuse of anything. That is how it is with me now. So yes, you are right. I need to find back to that.

Thanks for reminding me of it. I will stop posting for now, until I can get back to not fighting.

Regards and love.
Mikkel