Scientists finally prove there IS life after death

[ArtieE]

What happens if we let tv-assembling robots learn how to make better ones? We didn't design the new TVs. The program kinda did, I guess, but the AI would be using trial and error unless we defined certain goals first (and that's not how evolution works), the new TVs could be very different.

Now that is a very intriguing thought. It is true that there are no goals in evolution, but it is the natural environment that "decides" which change in the DNA is beneficial or detrimental to the survival of the organism. So if we supply the AI with the equivalent of a natural environment we can let it randomly try out absolutely every possibility and let it keep those that are useful in that environment and discard the rest like evolution and natural selection. It would be fascinating to see what would evolve.

 

[FearGod]

Nonsense. When are you going to get into your skull that atoms and molecules are able to stick together and interact with each other and produce assemblies and make complicated structures that can replicate but tv components can't evolve into a TV?

You don't get my point, OK, tell me how the DNA mutates, does it mutate for no reason and accidentally
or it mutates by environmental changes.

For the electronic components we do the change, but does the DNA do the change on its own?
Explain your point.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

If nothing exists without it first having been imagined and created why would God exist in the first place?

That's my point, everything has to originate ultimately in a creative mind, God must exist before anything else

 

[ArtieE]

You don't get my point, OK, tell me how the DNA mutates, does it mutate for no reason and accidentally
or it mutates by environmental changes.

See
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_20
and for types of mutations see
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/mutations_03
and
http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/genetic/dna-mutation.htm
http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/dna-replication-and-causes-of-mutation-409

And by the way there are many other ways to get changes in DNA.

Gene flow where genes move from one population to another.
Sex of course. Your DNA is pretty different from the DNA of both your parents.
Genetic drift.
And here's a stunner: Up to 8 percent of what we think of as human DNA actually comes from viruses!
And not to forget gene duplication. http://cshperspectives.cshlp.org/content/7/2/a016592.full
And DNA also deteriorates and changes with age.
Etc etc.

 

[ArtieE]

That's my point, everything has to originate ultimately in a creative mind, God must exist before anything else

And if everything has to originate in a creative mind and God is obviously a part of everything God must have originated in a creative mind. Whose mind was that?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

And if everything has to originate in a creative mind and God is obviously a part of everything God must have originated in a creative mind. Whose mind was that?

That creative mind created time itself as we know it, he is not bound by the constraints of his own creation, so he transcends linear cause-effect as we understand it.

If you think about it, the same apparent 1st cause paradox applies equally to any materialistic mechanism for the origins of the universe 'where did that come from'? Yet here we are. so it's a wash and a moot point.

What's not even, is that materialism introduces the additional paradox of having to create without creativity. We cant verify that this is even possible

 

[FearGod]

See
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_20
and for types of mutations see
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/mutations_03
and
http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/genetic/dna-mutation.htm
http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/dna-replication-and-causes-of-mutation-409

And by the way there are many other ways to get changes in DNA.

Gene flow where genes move from one population to another.
Sex of course. Your DNA is pretty different from the DNA of both your parents.
Genetic drift.
And here's a stunner: Up to 8 percent of what we think of as human DNA actually comes from viruses!
And not to forget gene duplication. http://cshperspectives.cshlp.org/content/7/2/a016592.full
And DNA also deteriorates and changes with age.
Etc etc.

From your sources, what causes the DNA to mutate in a beneficial way for a better species, self mutation or outside causer?

 

[ArtieE]

That creative mind created time itself as we know it, he is not bound by the constraints of his own creation, so he transcends linear cause-effect as we understand it.

But you said that everything has to originate in a creative mind and since God is something and part of everything whose mind did He originate in?

If you think about it, the same apparent 1st cause paradox applies equally to any materialistic mechanism for the origins of the universe 'where did that come from'? Yet here we are. so it's a wash and a moot point.

There is no first cause paradox some people think it is because they just have the wrong conception of what time is.

What's not even, is that materialism introduces the additional paradox of having to create without creativity. We cant verify that this is even possible

Nothing was created so there is no paradox.

 

[ArtieE]

From your sources, what causes the DNA to mutate in a beneficial way for a better species, self mutation or outside causer?

First, did you read all the links I provided?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

If you think about it, the same apparent 1st cause paradox applies equally to any materialistic mechanism for the origins of the universe 'where did that come from'? Yet here we are. so it's a wash and a moot point.

"Before" the big bang is still entirely unknown and unimaginable, and mechanisms like cause and effect are almost certainly inapplicable.

Basically we have no idea, and saying "God did it" is Sunday School rhetoric, something for children.

 

[FearGod]

First, did you read all the links I provided?

Yes i read multiple sources including yours and in order to debate and to discuss the issue of evolution and the DNA
then please answer my question.

what causes the DNA to mutate in a beneficial way for a better species, self mutation or outside causer?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

"Before" the big bang is still entirely unknown and unimaginable, and mechanisms like cause and effect are almost certainly inapplicable.

Basically we have no idea, and saying "God did it" is Sunday School rhetoric, something for children.

In terms of time-lines yes, it's difficult to talk about orders of events before time itself existed as we know it right?

But the originator of creation, of the information needed for us to be having this conversation, it's a distinct and separate paradox to say that the 'laws of nature' were created by- those same laws

This is what I was brought up with as a child 'nature done it' or 'it just is'

This is how, as a young child, we view all intelligently designed objects, we don't deduce the architect that designed the house we live in, we just accept that it exists along with trees and clouds.
It takes a little more experience and analytical thinking to distinguish things that nature most likely did not produce.

And of course as adults we try to teach children this, in Sunday school or shop class

 

[ArtieE]

Yes i read multiple sources including yours and in order to debate and to discuss the issue of evolution and the DNA
then please answer my question.

what causes the DNA to mutate in a beneficial way for a better species, self mutation or outside causer?

I don't remember having seen any studies about that. Why?

 

[ArtieE]

But the originator of creation, of the information needed for us to be having this conversation, it's a distinct and separate paradox to say that the 'laws of nature' were created by- those same laws

They weren't since what exists has always naturally existed in some form or other along with natural laws.

This is what I was brought up with as a child 'nature done it' or 'it just is'

This is how, as a young child, we view all intelligently designed objects, we don't deduce the architect that designed the house we live in, we just accept that it exists along with trees and clouds.
It takes a little more experience and analytical thinking to distinguish things that nature most likely did not produce.

And of course as adults we try to teach children this, in Sunday school or shop class

And continue the proud tradition by following in the footsteps of the enlightened people who taught their children that earthquakes were created by Poseidon and thunder by Thor. Lucky children.

 

[FearGod]

I don't remember having seen any studies about that. Why?

And how evolution by random mutations makes sense to you while we don't have an answer for the question?
Let's see if someone has the right answer for the question.

 

[McBell]

And how evolution by random mutations makes sense to you while we don't have an answer for the question?
Let's see if someone has the right answer for the question.

How about you skip to to your point and just give us the answer you are looking for so we can explain (whilst you completely ignore) what is wrong with your proffered answer?

 

[ArtieE]

And how evolution by random mutations makes sense to you while we don't have an answer for the question?
Let's see if someone has the right answer for the question.

It doesn't matter whether mutations are caused by external forces or internal. You did understand that mutations are just one of many reasons why DNA changes right? You seem to be complete obsessed with mutations as if they were the only causes.

 

[FearGod]

It doesn't matter whether mutations are caused by external forces or internal. You did understand that mutations are just one of many reasons why DNA changes right? You seem to be complete obsessed with mutations as if they were the only causes.

So when I asked you to connect the electronic components in random way then you opposed my example
by saying that in nature connection doesn't work the same, so I'm asking you how the DNA changed
its connections for the evolution to work,

what causes the DNA to mutate in a beneficial way for a better species, self mutation or outside causer?

 

[ArtieE]

@FearGod

I found a very interesting article about hox genes. http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/basics/hoxgenes/

 

[ArtieE]

So when I asked you to connect the electronic components in random way then you opposed my example
by saying that in nature connection doesn't work the same, so I'm asking you how the DNA changed
its connections for the evolution to work,

what causes the DNA to mutate in a beneficial way for a better species, self mutation or outside causer?

Both of course. What matters is that the DNA changes not what brings about the changes or where the cause originates.